Looking for thought on Zerocoin
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** Confirmed **
Meeting with their team next week (discovery). Whether you’re for or against the implementation, it doesn’t hurt to learn more about it.
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[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“24420” timestamp=“1375599577”]
That’s a really poor characterization of both Litecoin, and Zerocoin. Criminals are not the only people who need to have their monetary transactions be anonymous, and being anonymous doesn’t make you a criminal, let alone a better one. Poor choice of words, calling it “criminal coin”.
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[quote]
+1! Anonymity != criminality. It is obvious that people here want Zerocoin implemented because they value privacy, not because they are scheming to launch criminal enterprises.
[/quote]It is obvious to me that at this stage of development of Feathercoin, with the money laundering attacks on Bitcoin and its exchanges, it is naive to believe that implementing zerocoin won’t be taken as pandering to the criminal fraternity?
Feathercoin at the moment is anonymous enough so transactions aren’t easily traceable, but open enough so “normal” usage can show the transaction has taken place, if necessary.
Isn’t the real way forward for you -> setting up ZeroCoin from a Feathercoin clone, and exchanging your money through that a bit like Tor?.
That way you can use zerocoin, but it doesn’t taint Feathercoin, which is already number 2 scrypt based coin anyway, so doesn’t need that type of “hype”.
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[quote name=“wrapper0feather” post=“24638” timestamp=“1375784168”]
It is obvious to me that at this stage of development of Feathercoin, with the money laundering attacks on Bitcoin and its exchanges, it is naive to believe that implementing zerocoin won’t be taken as pandering to the criminal fraternity?
[/quote]
Not necessarily - adding Zerocoin would be the equivalent of having a mixer built right into the Feathercoin client. Blockchain.info, the most popular online wallet, already offers this service but for a 0.5% fee! They are a legit company and are operating legally.
I think the way it will be promoted is extremely important. For example, recently a new drug site called Atlantis started up and they released a You Tube promotion video where they cheerfully explained how easy it is to get “dank bud” using their new site. I think thumbing your nose at the law like this is never a good idea.
Simply stating that the cryptocurrency is now “100% anonymous” would be just fine (and legal).
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I just came across a great article by Jon Matonis on this subject:
[url=http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2013/06/05/the-politics-of-bitcoin-mixing-services/]http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2013/06/05/the-politics-of-bitcoin-mixing-services/[/url]
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Yes please Bushie. Just do it and see what happens. Pushing the envelope is what the wild west is all about.
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[quote name=“T4rQu1N” post=“24666” timestamp=“1375797791”]
Yes please Bushie. Just do it and see what happens. Pushing the envelope is what the wild west is all about.
[/quote]Actually doing whatever one pleases was what the wild west was all about.
Pushing the envelope is what NASA is all about.
Semantics yes but let’s not kid ourselves
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Any update on implementing Zerocoin? After the last disaster, this would be good
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For ZeroCoin to be part of Feathercoin it needs to be implemented which is a large task. Ideally we want someone dedicated to a ZeroCoin implementation. It may be a long time before I would have the time to work on this with the attention it needs. There is so much to do and I am busy my whole waking day on Feathercoin. I need to get out with my pom poms more to advertise this fact I think.
As I understood it there are a couple of ways you can implement it. Either make it completely mandatory or give nodes an option of running ZeroCoin or not. Some people will be dead against this so the option to choose seems fair and it would not need the entire network in my opinion. This needs to be investigated further and the technical impact will greatly affect initial discussion and work. The ZeroCoin team say that they are willing to support people in this but will not do any coding themselves.
If there is anyone who has the time to pursue this then please let me know.
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[quote name=“Bushstar” post=“28748” timestamp=“1379787245”]
For ZeroCoin to be part of Feathercoin it needs to be implemented which is a large task. Ideally we want someone dedicated to a ZeroCoin implementation. It may be a long time before I would have the time to work on this with the attention it needs. There is so much to do and I am busy my whole waking day on Feathercoin. I need to get out with my pom poms more to advertise this fact I think.As I understood it there are a couple of ways you can implement it. Either make it completely mandatory or give nodes an option of running ZeroCoin or not. Some people will be dead against this so the option to choose seems fair and it would not need the entire network in my opinion. This needs to be investigated further and the technical impact will greatly affect initial discussion and work. The ZeroCoin team say that they are willing to support people in this but will not do any coding themselves.
If there is anyone who has the time to pursue this then please let me know.
[/quote]Not quite. You need to implement it in the block chain, which requires a hard fork. That means everyone has to run it. You can’t get around the hard fork without eliminating centralization, but then the feathercoin community never has properly valued the decentralized nature of cryptocurrencies and went ahead with implementing that horrible blight of a feature ACP and the self appointed dictator who rules over it with an iron fist and no transparency, so maybe that’s a non issue. Worst idea ever. Really showed us just what a fucking brain dead mess the decision making process was around here. But I digress.
After that, how you expose it to the user is an exercise left up to the reader. One suggestion is compulsory mixing, in which all coins undergo mixing at regular intervals. Another option is to expose zeroed coins as “claim checks” which can be redeemed for the equilvent BTC by the user manually.
Why anyone would object to such a feature I’ve not figured out, but if someone has a solid argument against it I’d love to hear it.
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[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“28751” timestamp=“1379792318”]
[b]You can’t get around the hard fork without eliminating centralization, but then the feathercoin community never has properly valued the decentralized nature of cryptocurrencies and went ahead with implementing that horrible blight of a feature ACP and the self appointed dictator who rules over it with an iron fist and no transparency, so maybe that’s a non issue. Worst idea ever. Really showed us just what a fucking brain dead mess the decision making process was around here. [/b]
[/quote]Self appointed dictator who rules over everyone with an iron fist? :'(
We checkpoint history Kevlar to stop attackers from changing it, more people opted for it than did not. You chimed up to late and people would rather take the protection than take the beating from attackers.
I pour all my time and effort into this coin and it makes me sad to see you constantly attack me even when asking for help. I’m on this all of my waking day and I cannot make everyone happy.
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[quote name=“Bushstar” post=“28771” timestamp=“1379795899”]
[quote author=Kevlar link=topic=3136.msg28751#msg28751 date=1379792318]
[b]You can’t get around the hard fork without eliminating centralization, but then the feathercoin community never has properly valued the decentralized nature of cryptocurrencies and went ahead with implementing that horrible blight of a feature ACP and the self appointed dictator who rules over it with an iron fist and no transparency, so maybe that’s a non issue. Worst idea ever. Really showed us just what a fucking brain dead mess the decision making process was around here. [/b]
[/quote]Self appointed dictator who rules over everyone with an iron fist? :'(
We checkpoint history Kevlar to stop attackers from changing it, more people opted for it than did not. You chimed up to late and people would rather take the protection than take the beating from attackers.
I pour all my time and effort into this coin and it makes me sad to see you constantly attack me even when asking for help. I’m on this all of my waking day and I cannot make everyone happy.
[/quote]You guys should become friends. I would like to see Kevlar buying beer for Bush in one Oxford taproom :)
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@Kevlar
if your this unhappy with feathercoin, why do you stick around? theres alot of other options out there…
Im getting sick and tired of hearing you going on and on about how crazy the “centralization” is. Enough, the majority wanted to get protected against attacks,
ACP was choosen by the majority. Now please stop. -
Genuinely curious, but doesn’t Bitcoin have regularly scheduled manual checkpoints integrated into a client update? I’m assuming it’s a dev side task. Which would sort of counteract the decentralization point you made Kevlar [not including ACP].
Maybe I’m not getting something - but my understanding is that ACP is just an automated feature for checkpointing - although running off one node.
Bushstar, there will always be people who aren’t happy. I think Kevlar makes some great points, and maybe his method of communicating is a bit terse, but… yeah… I know the feeling. It’s always good to have a devil’s advocate, or two, or ten though.
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[quote name=“mnstrcck” post=“28776” timestamp=“1379796395”]
Bushstar, there will always be people who aren’t happy. I think Kevlar makes some great points, and maybe his method of communicating is a bit terse, but… yeah… I know the feeling. It’s always good to have a devil’s advocate, or two, or ten though.
[/quote]The problem is thats its like listening to a broken record, over and over again with the same thing.
It comes a time when you start to wonder if its just for spreading FUD… -
[quote name=“svennand” post=“28778” timestamp=“1379796630”]
[quote author=mnstrcck link=topic=3136.msg28776#msg28776 date=1379796395]
Bushstar, there will always be people who aren’t happy. I think Kevlar makes some great points, and maybe his method of communicating is a bit terse, but… yeah… I know the feeling. It’s always good to have a devil’s advocate, or two, or ten though.
[/quote]The problem is thats its like listening to a broken record, over and over again with the same thing.
It comes a time when you start to wonder if its just for spreading FUD…
[/quote]Solution: Beer [as mirrax suggested]
I bet if Kevlar met Bushstar in the real world, things would go much more smoothly.
Dare I say it - bromance? -
[quote name=“Bushstar” post=“28771” timestamp=“1379795899”]
We checkpoint history Kevlar to stop attackers from changing it, more people opted for it than did not. You chimed up to late and people would rather take the protection than take the beating from attackers.
[/quote]
You might want to check your history. [url=http://forum.feathercoin.com/index.php?topic=1878.msg15565#msg15565]Kevlar chimed up[/url] the first day ACP was seriously discussed. There was about 24 hours of discussion, although it seems a decision was made before the idea was debated by the community. I count a total of about 10 people in that thread who gave a strong opinion one way or another. I wouldn’t exactly call that a community consensus.Rewriting history seems to be a problem around here…
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Lot’s of people were not happy, including myself. It is not where I expected us to be going but now that we have it I am glad as I do not feel the weight of potential 51% attacks any more. We responded to the pressures we faced at the time and can lead the way for other coins who face such hostile attacks. Those attacks put clouds over us and it seemed like really dark times.
They are behind us now and we are finally down to 10 confirms on BTC-e after I spoke to the dev and explained our ACP. What we can do now is earnestly focus on the future and the things that we all really want to see.
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I too think if Kevlar and Bush met offline they would get on really well. Part of the problem here seems to be the style of communication rather than getting at the underlying issues.
But that asside I think we have gone off topic because this was a conversation about Zerocoin. Since we cannot change history, anyone’s version of it, perhaps we should start a new thread about how we plan to go forward after ACP. Since Bush himself said, in response to Kevlar’s initial concern:
[quote name=“Bushstar” post=“15639” timestamp=“1371377824”]
I share this concern. Firstly I want to get this checkpointing in so we can protect against malicious users trying to control the network.I have some ideas going forward to remove the centralisation of this solution.
[/quote]ACP was brought in to protect agains the immediate threat. Since we do not believe in centralisation as an end point I say we have a constructive debate in a separate thread with an accountable voting mechanism. I would also like to add that when you mine, buy and spend Feathercoins you are also casting a vote of sorts.
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[quote name=“chrisj” post=“28785” timestamp=“1379799083”]
…I say we have a constructive debate in a separate thread with an accountable voting mechanism.
[/quote]Agreed.
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Is zerodrama still working on a zerocoin implementation?
