Looking for thought on Zerocoin
-
Yes please Bushie. Just do it and see what happens. Pushing the envelope is what the wild west is all about.
-
[quote name=“T4rQu1N” post=“24666” timestamp=“1375797791”]
Yes please Bushie. Just do it and see what happens. Pushing the envelope is what the wild west is all about.
[/quote]Actually doing whatever one pleases was what the wild west was all about.
Pushing the envelope is what NASA is all about.
Semantics yes but let’s not kid ourselves
-
Any update on implementing Zerocoin? After the last disaster, this would be good
-
For ZeroCoin to be part of Feathercoin it needs to be implemented which is a large task. Ideally we want someone dedicated to a ZeroCoin implementation. It may be a long time before I would have the time to work on this with the attention it needs. There is so much to do and I am busy my whole waking day on Feathercoin. I need to get out with my pom poms more to advertise this fact I think.
As I understood it there are a couple of ways you can implement it. Either make it completely mandatory or give nodes an option of running ZeroCoin or not. Some people will be dead against this so the option to choose seems fair and it would not need the entire network in my opinion. This needs to be investigated further and the technical impact will greatly affect initial discussion and work. The ZeroCoin team say that they are willing to support people in this but will not do any coding themselves.
If there is anyone who has the time to pursue this then please let me know.
-
[quote name=“Bushstar” post=“28748” timestamp=“1379787245”]
For ZeroCoin to be part of Feathercoin it needs to be implemented which is a large task. Ideally we want someone dedicated to a ZeroCoin implementation. It may be a long time before I would have the time to work on this with the attention it needs. There is so much to do and I am busy my whole waking day on Feathercoin. I need to get out with my pom poms more to advertise this fact I think.As I understood it there are a couple of ways you can implement it. Either make it completely mandatory or give nodes an option of running ZeroCoin or not. Some people will be dead against this so the option to choose seems fair and it would not need the entire network in my opinion. This needs to be investigated further and the technical impact will greatly affect initial discussion and work. The ZeroCoin team say that they are willing to support people in this but will not do any coding themselves.
If there is anyone who has the time to pursue this then please let me know.
[/quote]Not quite. You need to implement it in the block chain, which requires a hard fork. That means everyone has to run it. You can’t get around the hard fork without eliminating centralization, but then the feathercoin community never has properly valued the decentralized nature of cryptocurrencies and went ahead with implementing that horrible blight of a feature ACP and the self appointed dictator who rules over it with an iron fist and no transparency, so maybe that’s a non issue. Worst idea ever. Really showed us just what a fucking brain dead mess the decision making process was around here. But I digress.
After that, how you expose it to the user is an exercise left up to the reader. One suggestion is compulsory mixing, in which all coins undergo mixing at regular intervals. Another option is to expose zeroed coins as “claim checks” which can be redeemed for the equilvent BTC by the user manually.
Why anyone would object to such a feature I’ve not figured out, but if someone has a solid argument against it I’d love to hear it.
-
[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“28751” timestamp=“1379792318”]
[b]You can’t get around the hard fork without eliminating centralization, but then the feathercoin community never has properly valued the decentralized nature of cryptocurrencies and went ahead with implementing that horrible blight of a feature ACP and the self appointed dictator who rules over it with an iron fist and no transparency, so maybe that’s a non issue. Worst idea ever. Really showed us just what a fucking brain dead mess the decision making process was around here. [/b]
[/quote]Self appointed dictator who rules over everyone with an iron fist? :'(
We checkpoint history Kevlar to stop attackers from changing it, more people opted for it than did not. You chimed up to late and people would rather take the protection than take the beating from attackers.
I pour all my time and effort into this coin and it makes me sad to see you constantly attack me even when asking for help. I’m on this all of my waking day and I cannot make everyone happy.
-
[quote name=“Bushstar” post=“28771” timestamp=“1379795899”]
[quote author=Kevlar link=topic=3136.msg28751#msg28751 date=1379792318]
[b]You can’t get around the hard fork without eliminating centralization, but then the feathercoin community never has properly valued the decentralized nature of cryptocurrencies and went ahead with implementing that horrible blight of a feature ACP and the self appointed dictator who rules over it with an iron fist and no transparency, so maybe that’s a non issue. Worst idea ever. Really showed us just what a fucking brain dead mess the decision making process was around here. [/b]
[/quote]Self appointed dictator who rules over everyone with an iron fist? :'(
We checkpoint history Kevlar to stop attackers from changing it, more people opted for it than did not. You chimed up to late and people would rather take the protection than take the beating from attackers.
I pour all my time and effort into this coin and it makes me sad to see you constantly attack me even when asking for help. I’m on this all of my waking day and I cannot make everyone happy.
[/quote]You guys should become friends. I would like to see Kevlar buying beer for Bush in one Oxford taproom :)
-
@Kevlar
if your this unhappy with feathercoin, why do you stick around? theres alot of other options out there…
Im getting sick and tired of hearing you going on and on about how crazy the “centralization” is. Enough, the majority wanted to get protected against attacks,
ACP was choosen by the majority. Now please stop. -
Genuinely curious, but doesn’t Bitcoin have regularly scheduled manual checkpoints integrated into a client update? I’m assuming it’s a dev side task. Which would sort of counteract the decentralization point you made Kevlar [not including ACP].
Maybe I’m not getting something - but my understanding is that ACP is just an automated feature for checkpointing - although running off one node.
Bushstar, there will always be people who aren’t happy. I think Kevlar makes some great points, and maybe his method of communicating is a bit terse, but… yeah… I know the feeling. It’s always good to have a devil’s advocate, or two, or ten though.
-
[quote name=“mnstrcck” post=“28776” timestamp=“1379796395”]
Bushstar, there will always be people who aren’t happy. I think Kevlar makes some great points, and maybe his method of communicating is a bit terse, but… yeah… I know the feeling. It’s always good to have a devil’s advocate, or two, or ten though.
[/quote]The problem is thats its like listening to a broken record, over and over again with the same thing.
It comes a time when you start to wonder if its just for spreading FUD… -
[quote name=“svennand” post=“28778” timestamp=“1379796630”]
[quote author=mnstrcck link=topic=3136.msg28776#msg28776 date=1379796395]
Bushstar, there will always be people who aren’t happy. I think Kevlar makes some great points, and maybe his method of communicating is a bit terse, but… yeah… I know the feeling. It’s always good to have a devil’s advocate, or two, or ten though.
[/quote]The problem is thats its like listening to a broken record, over and over again with the same thing.
It comes a time when you start to wonder if its just for spreading FUD…
[/quote]Solution: Beer [as mirrax suggested]
I bet if Kevlar met Bushstar in the real world, things would go much more smoothly.
Dare I say it - bromance? -
[quote name=“Bushstar” post=“28771” timestamp=“1379795899”]
We checkpoint history Kevlar to stop attackers from changing it, more people opted for it than did not. You chimed up to late and people would rather take the protection than take the beating from attackers.
[/quote]
You might want to check your history. [url=http://forum.feathercoin.com/index.php?topic=1878.msg15565#msg15565]Kevlar chimed up[/url] the first day ACP was seriously discussed. There was about 24 hours of discussion, although it seems a decision was made before the idea was debated by the community. I count a total of about 10 people in that thread who gave a strong opinion one way or another. I wouldn’t exactly call that a community consensus.Rewriting history seems to be a problem around here…
-
Lot’s of people were not happy, including myself. It is not where I expected us to be going but now that we have it I am glad as I do not feel the weight of potential 51% attacks any more. We responded to the pressures we faced at the time and can lead the way for other coins who face such hostile attacks. Those attacks put clouds over us and it seemed like really dark times.
They are behind us now and we are finally down to 10 confirms on BTC-e after I spoke to the dev and explained our ACP. What we can do now is earnestly focus on the future and the things that we all really want to see.
-
I too think if Kevlar and Bush met offline they would get on really well. Part of the problem here seems to be the style of communication rather than getting at the underlying issues.
But that asside I think we have gone off topic because this was a conversation about Zerocoin. Since we cannot change history, anyone’s version of it, perhaps we should start a new thread about how we plan to go forward after ACP. Since Bush himself said, in response to Kevlar’s initial concern:
[quote name=“Bushstar” post=“15639” timestamp=“1371377824”]
I share this concern. Firstly I want to get this checkpointing in so we can protect against malicious users trying to control the network.I have some ideas going forward to remove the centralisation of this solution.
[/quote]ACP was brought in to protect agains the immediate threat. Since we do not believe in centralisation as an end point I say we have a constructive debate in a separate thread with an accountable voting mechanism. I would also like to add that when you mine, buy and spend Feathercoins you are also casting a vote of sorts.
-
[quote name=“chrisj” post=“28785” timestamp=“1379799083”]
…I say we have a constructive debate in a separate thread with an accountable voting mechanism.
[/quote]Agreed.
-
Is zerodrama still working on a zerocoin implementation?
-
[quote name=“Tuck Fheman” post=“28794” timestamp=“1379806868”]
Is zerodrama still working on a zerocoin implementation?
[/quote]I dont know, but his nick is so predetermining ;D
-
[quote name=“svennand” post=“28774” timestamp=“1379796181”]
@Kevlar
if your this unhappy with feathercoin, why do you stick around? theres alot of other options out there…
[/quote]I’ve been asked this question more than once, and answered it each time. I’m not repeating myself again here.
[quote]
Im getting sick and tired of hearing you going on and on about how crazy the “centralization” is. Enough, the majority wanted to get protected against attacks,
ACP was choosen by the majority. Now please stop.
[/quote]I’m really glad I don’t have to defend against pointless attacks and revisionist history like this any more. The community has done a great job of pointing out A) That you’re dead wrong on all accounts here, except maybe the whole sick and tired part, and B) That such comments are actually very much a part of a healthy eco-system.
[quote]
and it makes me sad to see you constantly attack me
[/quote]I’m sure Bushstar is really sweet, obviously dedicated guy who wants nothing but to be successful. That doesn’t change the fact that the community and the coin has been damaged repeatedly by his decision making process. You fuck up in business, people go, “Hey, you fucked this up.” and silencing them just makes things worse for you and everyone else.
Let me give you a piece of advice that’s long overdue Bushstar: Don’t hate your critics, embrace them. Recognize that they are being critical for a reason, and address the reason. Your critics are the ones telling you they still love you and care. Worry when you do something badly and nobody bothers to tell you. I understand people don’t like being criticized, and we positively hate being not good enough for someone who matters to us, but the truth is criticism can make us better at what we do, and bring out passion for our work that we didn’t know we had. We just need to approach criticism with the right understanding: The basis is that we matter to each other, and the point is to improve each other.
Critics have very high expectations of you otherwise they would never criticize you. They are the ones who will encourage you to do greater work instead of just praising you for your existing accomplishments. So next time you’re getting criticism in business, stop for a second and remember what’s really going on. It’s only partly about the work itself. If we make each other better, the work will inevitably reflect it.
-
I know what you are saying Kevlar, have no doubt about that.
But I am really unsure what you want me to do?
-
[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“28850” timestamp=“1379859911”]
[quote author=svennand link=topic=3136.msg28774#msg28774 date=1379796181]
@Kevlar
if your this unhappy with feathercoin, why do you stick around? theres alot of other options out there…
[/quote]I’ve been asked this question more than once, and answered it each time. I’m not repeating myself again here.
[quote]
Im getting sick and tired of hearing you going on and on about how crazy the “centralization” is. Enough, the majority wanted to get protected against attacks,
ACP was choosen by the majority. Now please stop.
[/quote]I’m really glad I don’t have to defend against pointless attacks and revisionist history like this any more. The community has done a great job of pointing out A) That you’re dead wrong on all accounts here, except maybe the whole sick and tired part, and B) That such comments are actually very much a part of a healthy eco-system.
[quote]
and it makes me sad to see you constantly attack me
[/quote]I’m sure Bushstar is really sweet, obviously dedicated guy who wants nothing but to be successful. That doesn’t change the fact that the community and the coin has been damaged repeatedly by his decision making process. You fuck up in business, people go, “Hey, you fucked this up.” and silencing them just makes things worse for you and everyone else.
Let me give you a piece of advice that’s long overdue Bushstar: Don’t hate your critics, embrace them. Recognize that they are being critical for a reason, and address the reason. Your critics are the ones telling you they still love you and care. Worry when you do something badly and nobody bothers to tell you. I understand people don’t like being criticized, and we positively hate being not good enough for someone who matters to us, but the truth is criticism can make us better at what we do, and bring out passion for our work that we didn’t know we had. We just need to approach criticism with the right understanding: The basis is that we matter to each other, and the point is to improve each other.
Critics have very high expectations of you otherwise they would never criticize you. They are the ones who will encourage you to do greater work instead of just praising you for your existing accomplishments. So next time you’re getting criticism in business, stop for a second and remember what’s really going on. It’s only partly about the work itself. If we make each other better, the work will inevitably reflect it.
[/quote]Feathercoin is more that Bushstar and I did embrace you, I have reached out to you on Skype and listened and asked for more feedback from you repeatedly to make sure you are represented. I don’t know if you mean it but the way you come across to some people is rude and destructive, it’s not necessarily the content of what you’re saying that’s the problem.
If the outcome you want is to make Feathercoin stronger then this isn’t necessarily the most constructive way of achieving that outcome. We want to grow from failure but the failures need to be big enough to learn from but not so big they cripple us and hamper our efforts. I have written several posts over the last day or so:
[url=http://forum.feathercoin.com/index.php?topic=3749.msg28839#msg28839]http://forum.feathercoin.com/index.php?topic=3749.msg28839#msg28839[/url]
[url=http://forum.feathercoin.com/index.php?topic=3742.msg28806#msg28806]http://forum.feathercoin.com/index.php?topic=3742.msg28806#msg28806[/url]Including the addition of Polls to the forum and in most of my posts I request feedback at the end. Bushstar wants me to do this so that he can focus on code. I would rather keep these discussions at the level of debate that concerns the underlying issues themselves and not the person’s character or assumptions about their intentions (Fundamental Attribution Error etc). We are not ruling over a country, nobody is trapped here, nobody was forced in to Feathercoin from birth. I am working on behalf of the idea and I want to serve the people in this community who believe in that vision.
