Looking for thought on Zerocoin
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[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“24420” timestamp=“1375599577”]
That’s a really poor characterization of both Litecoin, and Zerocoin. Criminals are not the only people who need to have their monetary transactions be anonymous, and being anonymous doesn’t make you a criminal, let alone a better one. Poor choice of words, calling it “criminal coin”.
[/quote]
+1! Anonymity != criminality. It is obvious that people here want Zerocoin implemented because they value privacy, not because they are scheming to launch criminal enterprises.
When I hand over a bunch of fiat bills to pay for something, there is no public ledger that gets passed along with those bills for all to see where the money came from and where it went, for all eternity. It would be nice for a cryptocurrency to finally have that same advantage.
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We all want to try to justify privacy in many ways but there is only one that matters.
No one has any right to know what I buy and when I buy it. That’s what privacy all about. My business, no one elses. If I want to buy a bunch of milk and cookies with my money so be it. It’s also should not be considered “suspicious” to deny someone every little bit of info about myself. If you think it’s suspicious that I don’t want people in my business then you have something to hide. Does this mean some people can abuse this to do questionable things? Yes, but security doesn’t justify the abuse of my privacy. All that shows is that they suck at their job and want a shortcut. It shows there is a underlying problem that’s being ignored. Is there a happy medium? Yes but we’re no where near that.
[sub]sorry for the soapbox…[/sub]
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[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“24421” timestamp=“1375599812”]
[quote author=jeremiel link=topic=3136.msg24418#msg24418 date=1375599275]
I guess a question that comes out of this is do we need a website or some place visible to understand feathercoin’s development process? This might encourage other developers to jump on board and get projects moving. A forum post saying “coming along” does not do it, though it is better then nothing.My development skills are minimal(scripts) but I can offer to setup a site to do this and what do we want?
[/quote]Oh, you mean like some sort of knowledge base, where these things are made transparent and can be improved upon by the community… AKA a Wiki? Yeah. That would be a good start. But only if the developers actually use it as it’s intended, doing things like posting their designs for review and refinement and acceptance by the community before starting implementation. *cough*ACS*cough*
[/quote]I’m confused. If you don’t like the way things are run, you are free to create your own coin. Heck, you’re free to grab a project and contribute to Feathercoin’s acceptance. Great, you pointed out things that you feel should be done… what resources are YOU offering?
Everyone has wonderful ideas, individual action is what matters in the end.
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[quote name=“Justabitoftime” post=“24478” timestamp=“1375666398”]
[quote author=Kevlar link=topic=3136.msg24421#msg24421 date=1375599812]
[quote author=jeremiel link=topic=3136.msg24418#msg24418 date=1375599275]
I guess a question that comes out of this is do we need a website or some place visible to understand feathercoin’s development process? This might encourage other developers to jump on board and get projects moving. A forum post saying “coming along” does not do it, though it is better then nothing.My development skills are minimal(scripts) but I can offer to setup a site to do this and what do we want?
[/quote]Oh, you mean like some sort of knowledge base, where these things are made transparent and can be improved upon by the community… AKA a Wiki? Yeah. That would be a good start. But only if the developers actually use it as it’s intended, doing things like posting their designs for review and refinement and acceptance by the community before starting implementation. *cough*ACS*cough*
[/quote]I’m confused. If you don’t like the way things are run, you are free to create your own coin. Heck, you’re free to grab a project and contribute to Feathercoin’s acceptance. Great, you pointed out things that you feel should be done… what resources are YOU offering?
Everyone has wonderful ideas, individual action is what matters in the end.
[/quote]He might have been a bit angry on his comment but he was answering my question about setting up a resource for the community. So HE wasn’t offering a resource, I was. He was answering what would be a good choice to help quell fears because I asked.
Everyone needs to stop being paranoid and accusing people of being attackers against FTC. We got attacked because we WERE focused on the wrong thing. Everything was bright and shiny. Now it isn’t. Need to stop whining about the dirty shoes and move forward.
[quote author=jeremiel link=topic=3136.msg24428#msg24428 date=1375601664]
So I just set one up and nothing happens o’well? Ok. I have no problem getting something started though not really my skill set.
[/quote] -
tl;dr
I’ve been in contact with the team over at Zerocoin, we’re setting up a meeting sometime next week to learn more about the possible opportunities.
If you have some pent up energy, feel free to grab a few Feathercoin supporters and do something grassroots.
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The problem is that some of this stuff requires the explicit cooperation of the dev team. That’s what we’re looking for; so far anyone who has talked about making things more transparent in this way has been labeled a liar and thief and told to trust the people in charge.
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[quote name=“wesphily” post=“24582” timestamp=“1375734687”]
It is hard for me to believe that somebody with such knowledge/experience would only use it to talk negatively. (not talking about you) If I knew how to do what some people have suggested then I would have tested it on a clone coin and then shown proof to Bushstar for implimentation. I would not spend all my time typing doom and gloom.
[/quote]If you’re talking about me, then you’re clearly underestimating just how many hours there are in the day.
I’ve studied zerocoin. Even with libzerocoin, it’s still beyond my abilities to hobby it out in a ad-hoc fashion. It’s going to require some real organization from the developers to come up with the protocol to integrate it, so any time spent on Zerocoin is best spent there, because that work can be applied to any coin, which is one of the many things I’m doing with my free time. Unfortunately Feathercoin severely lacks that organizational structure, so I’m doing it with another group who take their development process much more seriously. We’re presently working on how to update the Strong RSA accumulator. That seems to be the tricky part in the entire scheme, since it has to be updated whenever a new Zerocoin is produced, but could be orphaned if a block comes before we’ve minted a block with it, so you have to union out the transactions that are already included when you update the accumulator. I’m also still puzzled how to make this happen with every block. So far the best solution I’ve come up with is to modify the client to ONLY store Zerocoin serials, so they can redeem them in one transaction, and then spend them in the next block after that transaction appears on the blockchain, but it may end up being better to just Zerocoin them initially, and wait X blocks to claim them, where x > 1 but perhaps less than 12, meaning they can’t be spent for those X blocks.
I can also assure you that the implementation will require a hard fork of the existing block chain.
But of course you’re all too busy ignoring my concerns and making silly accusations about me to really care what I’m doing with my free time.
It is hard for me to believe that a community with a vested interest in keeping the value of their coin would only use their time to bash the ones who talk negatively about it instead of listening to their well reasoned suggestions and [u][i][b]DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THE PROBLEMS BEING POINTED OUT[/b][/i][/u] in said negative talk. The Emperor is wearing no clothes, and all you can do is insult the people who are pointing it out?
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[quote name=“wesphily” post=“24590” timestamp=“1375736809”]
So…what you all are saying is that you are willing to assist with programming if I can get you connected with Bushstar?
[/quote]No. I thought I made myself clear in this post: http://forum.feathercoin.com/index.php?topic=3136.msg24419#msg24419
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[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“24588” timestamp=“1375736202”]
[quote author=wesphily link=topic=3136.msg24582#msg24582 date=1375734687]
It is hard for me to believe that somebody with such knowledge/experience would only use it to talk negatively. (not talking about you) If I knew how to do what some people have suggested then I would have tested it on a clone coin and then shown proof to Bushstar for implimentation. I would not spend all my time typing doom and gloom.
[/quote]If you’re talking about me, then you’re clearly underestimating just how many hours there are in the day.
I’ve studied zerocoin. Even with libzerocoin, it’s still beyond my abilities to hobby it out in a ad-hoc fashion. It’s going to require some real organization from the developers to come up with the protocol to integrate it, so any time spent on Zerocoin is best spent there, because that work can be applied to any coin, which is one of the many things I’m doing with my free time. Unfortunately Feathercoin severely lacks that organizational structure, so I’m doing it with another group who take their development process much more seriously. We’re presently working on how to update the Strong RSA accumulator. That seems to be the tricky part in the entire scheme, since it has to be updated whenever a new Zerocoin is produced, but could be orphaned if a block comes before we’ve minted a block with it, so you have to union out the transactions that are already included when you update the accumulator. I’m also still puzzled how to make this happen with every block. So far the best solution I’ve come up with is to modify the client to ONLY store Zerocoin serials, so they can redeem them in one transaction, and then spend them in the next block after that transaction appears on the blockchain, but it may end up being better to just Zerocoin them initially, and wait X blocks to claim them, where x > 1 but perhaps less than 12, meaning they can’t be spent for those X blocks.
I can also assure you that the implementation will require a hard fork of the existing block chain.
But of course you’re all too busy ignoring my concerns and making silly accusations about me to really care what I’m doing with my free time.
It is hard for me to believe that a community with a vested interest in keeping the value of their coin would only use their time to bash the ones who talk negatively about it instead of listening to their well reasoned suggestions and [u][i][b]DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THE PROBLEMS BEING POINTED OUT[/b][/i][/u] in said negative talk. The Emperor is wearing no clothes, and all you can do is insult the people who are pointing it out?
[/quote]It’s funny… I remember a time when I was sending individual emails to people over at Bitcointalk to encourage them to take a look at the forums. It’s easy to talk about how disorganized Feathercoin is… I would have ** LOVED ** to seen how you would have done it differently. Heck, create a new coin, show me how easy it is to make it all work. There are so many coins right now trying to figure that out with little success. Not an opinion, that’s a simple measurable fact.
Look around, one of the most active communities out there… obviously this disorganized group did something right. I bet it looks so easy from a distance, I can’t wait to watch how you rally hundreds of very different opinions any more effectively. Really, I’m looking forward to seeing what I could have done differently with *drum roll* volunteers.
As you can see from my posts in the main discussion, I will continue to help push the coin forward. As for all this, I believe while some good points are made, it’s wrapped around typical crypto drama. I don’t care about how much people make on their arbitrage bots, I don’t care they are ‘rewarded’ by women… .just plain nonsense (this was mentioned in a previous reply in this thread). I’ll spend my time with the movers and shakers trying to add value to your investments. Good luck to all.
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** Confirmed **
Meeting with their team next week (discovery). Whether you’re for or against the implementation, it doesn’t hurt to learn more about it.
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[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“24420” timestamp=“1375599577”]
That’s a really poor characterization of both Litecoin, and Zerocoin. Criminals are not the only people who need to have their monetary transactions be anonymous, and being anonymous doesn’t make you a criminal, let alone a better one. Poor choice of words, calling it “criminal coin”.
[/quote]
[quote]
+1! Anonymity != criminality. It is obvious that people here want Zerocoin implemented because they value privacy, not because they are scheming to launch criminal enterprises.
[/quote]It is obvious to me that at this stage of development of Feathercoin, with the money laundering attacks on Bitcoin and its exchanges, it is naive to believe that implementing zerocoin won’t be taken as pandering to the criminal fraternity?
Feathercoin at the moment is anonymous enough so transactions aren’t easily traceable, but open enough so “normal” usage can show the transaction has taken place, if necessary.
Isn’t the real way forward for you -> setting up ZeroCoin from a Feathercoin clone, and exchanging your money through that a bit like Tor?.
That way you can use zerocoin, but it doesn’t taint Feathercoin, which is already number 2 scrypt based coin anyway, so doesn’t need that type of “hype”.
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[quote name=“wrapper0feather” post=“24638” timestamp=“1375784168”]
It is obvious to me that at this stage of development of Feathercoin, with the money laundering attacks on Bitcoin and its exchanges, it is naive to believe that implementing zerocoin won’t be taken as pandering to the criminal fraternity?
[/quote]
Not necessarily - adding Zerocoin would be the equivalent of having a mixer built right into the Feathercoin client. Blockchain.info, the most popular online wallet, already offers this service but for a 0.5% fee! They are a legit company and are operating legally.
I think the way it will be promoted is extremely important. For example, recently a new drug site called Atlantis started up and they released a You Tube promotion video where they cheerfully explained how easy it is to get “dank bud” using their new site. I think thumbing your nose at the law like this is never a good idea.
Simply stating that the cryptocurrency is now “100% anonymous” would be just fine (and legal).
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I just came across a great article by Jon Matonis on this subject:
[url=http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2013/06/05/the-politics-of-bitcoin-mixing-services/]http://www.forbes.com/sites/jonmatonis/2013/06/05/the-politics-of-bitcoin-mixing-services/[/url]
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Yes please Bushie. Just do it and see what happens. Pushing the envelope is what the wild west is all about.
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[quote name=“T4rQu1N” post=“24666” timestamp=“1375797791”]
Yes please Bushie. Just do it and see what happens. Pushing the envelope is what the wild west is all about.
[/quote]Actually doing whatever one pleases was what the wild west was all about.
Pushing the envelope is what NASA is all about.
Semantics yes but let’s not kid ourselves
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Any update on implementing Zerocoin? After the last disaster, this would be good
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For ZeroCoin to be part of Feathercoin it needs to be implemented which is a large task. Ideally we want someone dedicated to a ZeroCoin implementation. It may be a long time before I would have the time to work on this with the attention it needs. There is so much to do and I am busy my whole waking day on Feathercoin. I need to get out with my pom poms more to advertise this fact I think.
As I understood it there are a couple of ways you can implement it. Either make it completely mandatory or give nodes an option of running ZeroCoin or not. Some people will be dead against this so the option to choose seems fair and it would not need the entire network in my opinion. This needs to be investigated further and the technical impact will greatly affect initial discussion and work. The ZeroCoin team say that they are willing to support people in this but will not do any coding themselves.
If there is anyone who has the time to pursue this then please let me know.
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[quote name=“Bushstar” post=“28748” timestamp=“1379787245”]
For ZeroCoin to be part of Feathercoin it needs to be implemented which is a large task. Ideally we want someone dedicated to a ZeroCoin implementation. It may be a long time before I would have the time to work on this with the attention it needs. There is so much to do and I am busy my whole waking day on Feathercoin. I need to get out with my pom poms more to advertise this fact I think.As I understood it there are a couple of ways you can implement it. Either make it completely mandatory or give nodes an option of running ZeroCoin or not. Some people will be dead against this so the option to choose seems fair and it would not need the entire network in my opinion. This needs to be investigated further and the technical impact will greatly affect initial discussion and work. The ZeroCoin team say that they are willing to support people in this but will not do any coding themselves.
If there is anyone who has the time to pursue this then please let me know.
[/quote]Not quite. You need to implement it in the block chain, which requires a hard fork. That means everyone has to run it. You can’t get around the hard fork without eliminating centralization, but then the feathercoin community never has properly valued the decentralized nature of cryptocurrencies and went ahead with implementing that horrible blight of a feature ACP and the self appointed dictator who rules over it with an iron fist and no transparency, so maybe that’s a non issue. Worst idea ever. Really showed us just what a fucking brain dead mess the decision making process was around here. But I digress.
After that, how you expose it to the user is an exercise left up to the reader. One suggestion is compulsory mixing, in which all coins undergo mixing at regular intervals. Another option is to expose zeroed coins as “claim checks” which can be redeemed for the equilvent BTC by the user manually.
Why anyone would object to such a feature I’ve not figured out, but if someone has a solid argument against it I’d love to hear it.
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[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“28751” timestamp=“1379792318”]
[b]You can’t get around the hard fork without eliminating centralization, but then the feathercoin community never has properly valued the decentralized nature of cryptocurrencies and went ahead with implementing that horrible blight of a feature ACP and the self appointed dictator who rules over it with an iron fist and no transparency, so maybe that’s a non issue. Worst idea ever. Really showed us just what a fucking brain dead mess the decision making process was around here. [/b]
[/quote]Self appointed dictator who rules over everyone with an iron fist? :'(
We checkpoint history Kevlar to stop attackers from changing it, more people opted for it than did not. You chimed up to late and people would rather take the protection than take the beating from attackers.
I pour all my time and effort into this coin and it makes me sad to see you constantly attack me even when asking for help. I’m on this all of my waking day and I cannot make everyone happy.
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[quote name=“Bushstar” post=“28771” timestamp=“1379795899”]
[quote author=Kevlar link=topic=3136.msg28751#msg28751 date=1379792318]
[b]You can’t get around the hard fork without eliminating centralization, but then the feathercoin community never has properly valued the decentralized nature of cryptocurrencies and went ahead with implementing that horrible blight of a feature ACP and the self appointed dictator who rules over it with an iron fist and no transparency, so maybe that’s a non issue. Worst idea ever. Really showed us just what a fucking brain dead mess the decision making process was around here. [/b]
[/quote]Self appointed dictator who rules over everyone with an iron fist? :'(
We checkpoint history Kevlar to stop attackers from changing it, more people opted for it than did not. You chimed up to late and people would rather take the protection than take the beating from attackers.
I pour all my time and effort into this coin and it makes me sad to see you constantly attack me even when asking for help. I’m on this all of my waking day and I cannot make everyone happy.
[/quote]You guys should become friends. I would like to see Kevlar buying beer for Bush in one Oxford taproom :)
