Diff trap... Again.

[ghostlander]

[quote name=“groll” post=“25806” timestamp=“1376799747”]
what is important i think is that we keep a range near 41.4% max adjustment for 504 blocks
so the 12 blocks looking back 504 blocks should make a small change like 1% each (42*1% composite would make like 47-48% max). this would keep time warp attack to at least actual efficiency and probably make it more efficient.

a good timing of time warp and big retarget over 12 block even if looking at 504 back can make a diff increase that can be worst then what we have even with 30-40% of the hash rate. the probability of success are just proportional to your hash rate in the network and can be retry every 12 blocks. so you place block in future at some point getting diff down a bit artificially when you hit the retarget. so at some point after you make 504 block after block with time in the past as mush as you can. if you get both side on a retarget you can get ~3h lower time so mostly a max up retarget.
[/quote]

We can surely set a 1% maximum on difficulty retarget every 12 blocks to keep performance close to current 41.42% over 504 blocks. Additional restriction on future time stamps and increased nMedianTimeSpan reduce negative effects of time warp attacks. Advanced checkpointing addresses the problem of valid blocks being orphaned by attackers and decreases necessary number of confirmations for transactions to just a few. Is there anything else worth to be implemented?

[SixGun]

As it seems appropriate to this thread (to me anyway), and because I don’t really feel like I got any good answer as to why it isn’t feasable, I will inject this comment again from one of the previous threads:

[quote name=“SixGun” post=“16421” timestamp=“1371649501”]
Why must DiffIncrease be equal to DiffDecrease? The issue I see is that we are having difficulty maintaining the 2.5 minute block target. What would be the negative potential if the 41% increase algorithm was separated from the algorithm that determines the diff decrease based on dropping hash power. The goal being to maintain the block time, not the profitability factor. Thinking long term, the survival of any currency depends on a consumer’s ability to use it. What I see hurting the FTC value is the long block times in period of reduced hash power.

Wouldn’t this set FTC apart from other coins (not just alts)? Thinking of a currency from a payment processing perspective, digital currencies will [i]never[/i] be able to reach parity with actual cash {not thinking of bank to bank transfers} unless there was [b][i]instantaneous[/i][/b] confirmation. Part of the reason credit cards work so well for consumers is that they [i]perceive[/i] the confirmation to be instantaneous, just like if they handed over paper bills. Let’s not get into the semantics of credit as that is whole other discussion.

My point is that consumers/users of a medium of payment don’t think about the technical aspects. If we are trying to build a long term currency/economy we must remove the variability of payment processing in some way. Since transaction confirmation depends solely on the miner nodes on the network…it follows that the time period to confirm must be as fast as possible nearly irregardless of the technical backbone (miners) of the system.

The way I understand it the positive benefit of digital currency is to move [i]large[/i] amounts of currency quickly, with moderate anonymity. Cash is king because I can go down the street and hand over a bundle to my neighbor to buy his car. The legality, and proper reporting, of that transaction isn’t and shouldn’t be up to the producer of the currency.

I’m not speaking about the diff change and it’s impact on miners necessarily, rather I am thinking about it’s affect on the viability and perceived stability/staying power of currency (FTC). What I perceive as killing the network’s strength right now is that we had a huge jump in hash power which necessarily raised the difficulty (and by proxy the profitability and market value), however once the difficulty adjusted accordingly and miners jumped off the network strength suffered.

This may be a very naive point of view from an admitted n00b, but please help me understand why this wouldn’t be beneficial for long term success. We need to think ahead to the days when FTC is humming along at 5 TH/s and suddenly a major internet backbone goes dark and we lose a significant portion of the network nodes for a short period. The network needs to be able to maintain it’s confirmation times or [i]consumers[/i] lose faith.

Again, please be kind…
[/quote]

A couple of notes:

1. as pointed out by zerodrama a little farther down on the OT, I should have said “The goal being to maintain the block time, [b][i]and subsequently[/i][/b] the profitability factor.” instead of “not”. I didn’t mean that they way I expressed it.

2. Also, after some more time mining {can’t mine currently, but hope to be back up this weekend} and more time reading these posts and learning from more knowledgeable here {I greatly respect both NutNut and Svennand}, I am definitely thinking about the difficulty and it’s affect on miners. I realize now that I was before, but didn’t really know it. :-\

Anyway, that’s my thoughts. Been lurking for a while, but this topic is dear to me as I have been fighting internally about whether to invest into more mining gear.

[svennand]

Will you look at that, we´re at 12kM/hash again ::)

[chrisj]

Even though there is the occasional tumult in these posts I do find they are productive and very interesting. I think this is a problem that is not isolated to Feathercoin. What about a Google Hangout discussion?

C

[svennand]

[quote name=“Simkill” post=“25959” timestamp=“1376995085”]
[quote author=svennand link=topic=3327.msg25948#msg25948 date=1376978175]
Will you look at that, we´re at 12kM/hash again ::)
[/quote]
You must have turned your rig back on :P
[/quote]

hehe lol i wished have measly 16MKhash, would have had more if it wasnt for not having any more spare Amp reserves in fusebox=P

[digitalfog]

Feathercoin seems to be doing just fine against the plethora of new coins. It tends to be in the top 15 of average “highest profitability” coins.

I’ve spent the last two weeks testing multicoin and middlecoin - so you can call me a cruiser this past month. I wasn’t overly impressed with my results. What I found is that I am generally better off mining Feathercoin exclusively.

Mining for DGC or WDC drives me nuts because of the huge stale / orphan rate. Even on the best network, you are not going to get very close to “estimated” coins per hour/day. Although one would think they were “making bank” by being on a pool switcher, it all evens down to a lower return due to a dozen reasons. (Falling prices/diff settings/stales/orphans/switching time/pool luck.)

Also, notice the weakness in prices? The ever lower prices? All of these automatic sell transactions on multi-pools don’t happen in a vacuum.

So with that, I’d prefer to see more Feathercoin adoption among the business community. In the end, e-commerce transactions using Feathercoin will be the vital bread and butter for success.

[Radacoin]

+1. Very well said!

[quote name=“digitalfog” post=“26006” timestamp=“1377024894”]
Although one would think they were “making bank” by being on a pool switcher, it all evens down to a lower return due to a dozen reasons. (Falling prices/diff settings/stales/orphans/switching time/pool luck.)
[/quote]

And not to forget the tiny volume on the smaller exchanges like Crytpsy, Vircurex or Bter.
One coin might be listed as #1 on coinchoose, with a profitability of 700%, and an exchange rate of 0.00005xxx.

But in reality you get this 0.00005xxx only for a handful of coins. All your other coins you have to sell for much less. It’s not uncommon that the whole Bid side for one of those coins is only 1 or 1.5 BTC - all the way down from 0.00005xxx to 0.00003xxx.

So in reality the 700% profitability from coinchoose are more like 300%. Or even less …

[quote]
So with that, I’d prefer to see more Feathercoin adoption among the business community. In the end, e-commerce transactions using Feathercoin will be the vital bread and butter for success.
[/quote]

Yes, absolutely!

[digitalfog]

[quote name=“Radacoin” post=“26017” timestamp=“1377030626”]
+1. Very well said!

And not to forget the tiny volume on the smaller exchanges like Crytpsy, Vircurex or Bter.
One coin might be listed as #1 on coinchoose, with a profitability of 700%, and an exchange rate of 0.00005xxx.

But in reality you get this 0.00005xxx only for a handful of coins. All your other coins you have to sell for much less. It’s not uncommon that the whole Bid side for one of those coins is only 1 or 1.5 BTC - all the way down from 0.00005xxx to 0.00003xxx.

[/quote]

Thank you…and absolutely! Vacuous bid side markets are alive and well in alt. crypto land.

[svennand]

[quote name=“digitalfog” post=“26006” timestamp=“1377024894”]
Feathercoin seems to be doing just fine against the plethora of new coins. It tends to be in the top 15 of average “highest profitability” coins.

I’ve spent the last two weeks testing multicoin and middlecoin - so you can call me a cruiser this past month. I wasn’t overly impressed with my results. What I found is that I am generally better off mining Feathercoin exclusively.

Mining for DGC or WDC drives me nuts because of the huge stale / orphan rate. Even on the best network, you are not going to get very close to “estimated” coins per hour/day. Although one would think they were “making bank” by being on a pool switcher, it all evens down to a lower return due to a dozen reasons. (Falling prices/diff settings/stales/orphans/switching time/pool luck.)

Also, notice the weakness in prices? The ever lower prices? All of these automatic sell transactions on multi-pools don’t happen in a vacuum.

So with that, I’d prefer to see more Feathercoin adoption among the business community. In the end, e-commerce transactions using Feathercoin will be the vital bread and butter for success.
[/quote]

Both DGC and WDC has had issues lately so a pro “switch miner” would most likely not direct his power there…
As regarding multipools, they are noe entirely the only to “blame”.

If someone have a farm of miners its not that much to it to create a script to switch coins your mining.

For example: say the diff of feathercoin is getting pumped up.

Now the only thing he needs is to have a script running that reads the feed from feathercoin stat, then have a method that runs and awaits for the stat value to change.
Example in java (its just dirty unusable code, but hope you get the idea):

private void setCoin(){

double ftcDiff == the feed…

if(ftcDiff < 200){
updateFtcDiff();
}
else{ runCmdToCgminer(); }
}

Now he only needs to set up several pool options in cgminer, and make the java program send an request to cgminer to change pool…

If i were to actually create something like this i would do it much more aggressive and creative.
Counting in all kinds of things like exchange value, list of coin options i know would trade easily and so on…

Example if i were to mine novacoin now and sell it for ftc i would get 25% more ftc coins in the same amount of time… that means while the loyal
miner gets 750 coins in a day, the same miner could get 1000coins in a day just by doing some effort in script controlling.

This is what i think needs to be dealt with. As long as the pump/dump continues on the coin i cant see neither the diff or the value go anywhere anytime soon.

[Radacoin]

[quote name=“svennand” post=“26023” timestamp=“1377032375”]
As long as the pump/dump continues on the coin i cant see neither the diff or the value go anywhere anytime soon.
[/quote]

I tend to agree with you.
The diff swings need to be addressed in the very near future. imho.
(-> stability … my most favourite word it seems *g*)

In the bigger picture digitalfog (“In the end, e-commerce transactions using Feathercoin will be the vital bread and butter for success.”) is spot on.

Can we agree on this?

[svennand]

[quote name=“Radacoin” post=“26024” timestamp=“1377034298”]
[quote author=svennand link=topic=3327.msg26023#msg26023 date=1377032375]
As long as the pump/dump continues on the coin i cant see neither the diff or the value go anywhere anytime soon.
[/quote]

I tend to agree with you.
The diff swings need to be addressed in the very near future. imho.
(-> stability … my most favourite word it seems *g*)

In the bigger picture digitalfog (“In the end, e-commerce transactions using Feathercoin will be the vital bread and butter for success.”) is spot on.

Can we agree on this?
[/quote]

of course.
im just adressing the current problem :D

as soon as this is the past im looking forward to get the coin wider spread 8)

EDIT:
Now the network is down to 2000Mhash, that 1/6 of the previouse hashrate before diff increase.

[rob_1990]

The price on the exchange has dropped. The difficulty is up again. It looks like another day (or 2) of high diff. :(

[svennand]

[quote name=“Simkill” post=“26039” timestamp=“1377080941”]
and the net rate has significantly decreased, leaving me and you in the poo
[/quote]

been here before. just hold on tight and dont get nervouse.
Im certain that this setback will be resolved ;)

[tuneman1980]

[quote name=“svennand” post=“26023” timestamp=“1377032375”]
Example if i were to mine novacoin now and sell it for ftc i would get 25% more ftc coins in the same amount of time… that means while the loyal
miner gets 750 coins in a day, the same miner could get 1000coins in a day just by doing some effort in script controlling.

This is what i think needs to be dealt with. As long as the pump/dump continues on the coin i cant see neither the diff or the value go anywhere anytime soon.
[/quote]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but if you choose that method then aren’t you helping the value, since you have to purchase those coins on an exchange now.

[birddog]

[quote name=“tuneman1980” post=“26046” timestamp=“1377092013”]
[quote author=svennand link=topic=3327.msg26023#msg26023 date=1377032375]
Example if i were to mine novacoin now and sell it for ftc i would get 25% more ftc coins in the same amount of time… that means while the loyal
miner gets 750 coins in a day, the same miner could get 1000coins in a day just by doing some effort in script controlling.

This is what i think needs to be dealt with. As long as the pump/dump continues on the coin i cant see neither the diff or the value go anywhere anytime soon.
[/quote]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but if you choose that method then aren’t you helping the value, since you have to purchase those coins on an exchange now.
[/quote]

Thats an interesting thought. I believe you are correct.

[svennand]

[quote name=“tuneman1980” post=“26046” timestamp=“1377092013”]
[quote author=svennand link=topic=3327.msg26023#msg26023 date=1377032375]
Example if i were to mine novacoin now and sell it for ftc i would get 25% more ftc coins in the same amount of time… that means while the loyal
miner gets 750 coins in a day, the same miner could get 1000coins in a day just by doing some effort in script controlling.

This is what i think needs to be dealt with. As long as the pump/dump continues on the coin i cant see neither the diff or the value go anywhere anytime soon.
[/quote]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but if you choose that method then aren’t you helping the value, since you have to purchase those coins on an exchange now.
[/quote]

not if im paying close attention to fontas and store the value in btc.
just buy low when diff is low and sell later at higher value/diff.

then you make an even better killing as opposed to the loyal miner/holders/ftc users.
Look at exhange now… does it look like the diff trap is working?

[justabitoftime]

How about something like:

168 blocks ~ 14%

[b]Maybe [/b]some type of conditions that state if we’re stuck in a difficulty trap for x amount of time and an adjustment wasn’t made, make y adjustment. Just tossing out an idea, not married to it by any means.

I also agree with education being the key. I feel what I’m about to detail is still on topic since there’s been discussion about educating the miners and general public.

One way to help push that along would be to create a FeathercoinFacts type website which highlight the following:

• Why sites such as coinchoose are useful to see movement within currencies, they are not real good indicator on investment based on market depth

• When the retarget is eventually modified, explain why

• When ACP is released, focus on all the advantages

• When Mark releases his SMS wallet out of alpha, took about it how it could be used to help poorer communities by eliminating the need for smart phones

!!! - Show the progression from Bitcoin to Tenebrix (scrypt) to Fairbrix to Litecoin to Feathercoin

• This would clean up the misunderstanding from the general public that Litecoin was the first to implement scrypt

• It respects Litecoin by showing that small modifications done the right way can further an idea

• It would show with ACP, Feathercoin is following the tradition by improving on past work

• This might even make a great 1 page pdf

• Maybe show something along the lines of Bitcoin went for x amount in 2009, now it’s worth $, Litecoin went for x in 2011, now it’s worth $, Feathercoin …

Just an idea.

If you make it a big deal, so will others. Feathercoin is at the stage where we need to start finding ways to make it easy to obtain and detail all the reasons to invest.

[svennand]

[quote name=“Justabitoftime” post=“26055” timestamp=“1377108646”]
How about something like:

168 blocks ~ 14%
[/quote]

maybe, should be in the suggestion box along with other diff adjustment values.

[quote]
[b]Maybe [/b]some type of conditions that state if we’re stuck in a difficulty trap for x amount of time and an adjustment wasn’t made, make y adjustment. Just tossing out an idea, not married to it by any means.
[/quote]

this is interessting, i have suggested this before without getting any attention.
Cant entirely se how this is feasible however.
I have not looked at how the chain/code is built up regarding diff adjustment/time etc.
Im guessing theres a method that uses calculation of network hash given amount of time to find blocks?
It might be able to have a method in there that is using several key internation clock values (not have it relying on one feed). Which could lay dorment and activates if the “estimated” block time is going a certain prosentage beyond the specified 2.5min pr block.

Maybe someone with closer connection to the code can shed some lights on this?

[quote]
I also agree with education being the key. I feel what I’m about to detail is still on topic since there’s been discussion about educating the miners and general public.

One way to help push that along would be to create a FeathercoinFacts type website which highlight the following:

• Why sites such as coinchoose are useful to see movement within currencies, they are not real good indicator on investment based on market depth

• When the retarget is eventually modified, explain why

• When ACP is released, focus on all the advantages

• When Mark releases his SMS wallet out of alpha, took about it how it could be used to help poorer communities by eliminating the need for smart phones

!!! - Show the progression from Bitcoin to Tenebrix (scrypt) to Fairbrix to Litecoin to Feathercoin

• This would clean up the misunderstanding from the general public that Litecoin was the first to implement scrypt

• It respects Litecoin by showing that small modifications done the right way can further an idea

• It would show with ACP, Feathercoin is following the tradition by improving on past work

• This might even make a great 1 page pdf

• Maybe show something along the lines of Bitcoin went for x amount in 2009, now it’s worth $, Litecoin went for x in 2011, now it’s worth $, Feathercoin …

Just an idea.
[/quote]

I think this is a smart idea and should be highly considered :D

[wrapper]

I agree, however, the difficulty should be adjusted every 100 blocks, based on the average block rate for 100, 1000 and 10,000 blocks. This will help with both our main problems,

1. Short term hash switching.
2. Failure to reach the Long term (monthly) target Block production rate.

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[netnerd]

here we go again already at 9.5gh :'( defo not fair for loyal FTC miners like myself, please do something :-\
Not very encouraging, as I am throwing every bit of spare cash at FTC trying to get a 4x7950 rig together ( I AM NOT RICH!!!), I now have two cards and I am not really earning any more than when I had 1 card…