PPS pool?

Nutnut

[quote name=“sp495” post=“25487” timestamp=“1376413745”]
Not with that fee
[/quote]

There’s a difference between PPS and RBPPS (which coinotron currently uses).

With PPS the pool op takes the risk of orphaned blocks not the miners as the round is payed instantly and that’s what coinotron stopped doing. RBPPS is round based so the miners will only get paid once the block is confirmed so if it gets orphaned, the whole round and all the shares are discarded.

To that end, i think 4% is pretty good value given the recent attacks.

UKMark

Seems a very good deal, I was paying 5% PPS with Coinotron mining Litecoin months ago.

sp495

Just being honest guys, don’t get butt hurt

Nutnut

[quote name=“sp495” post=“25501” timestamp=“1376416797”]
Just being honest guys, don’t get butt hurt
[/quote]

No butt hurt dude, just pointing out the facts and the value.

PPS reduces the risk to miners and increases the risk to pool ops - that’s why there’s no PPS pools for ftc and all other coins PPS pools charge large fees. It seems you may have been unaware of the facts as may others have been so i replied with more details. simples. ;D

Just for the record, Coinotron charges 5% for is true PPS pools and 12% for it’s PPC PPS pool. It currently doesn’t run an FTC PPS due to risk.

sp495

In an effort to be more constructive so that my replies aren’t taken as hostile, I think 2% is fair. Of course it’s your decision. I personally prefer it to be donation driven but I understand you want a steady income to offset costs.

Nutnut

I already run 0% pools for PPLNS that are donation based. I would run 2% for RBPPS. For PPS though it’s not worth the risk unless it’s 4%.

Can i confirm that you know how PPS works?

svennand

[quote name=“sp495” post=“25504” timestamp=“1376417834”]
In an effort to be more constructive so that my replies aren’t taken as hostile, I think 2% is fair. Of course it’s your decision. I personally prefer it to be donation driven but I understand you want a steady income to offset costs.
[/quote]

As nutnut said, do you know what pps is? (not meant in a bad way)

The reason i ask is because you prefer a pps pool to be donation driven?

Its not nutnut that wants a steady income,he is gambling!=)
he wants to offer miners a steady income…

Tuck Fheman

Im in.

svennand

[quote name=“Tuck Fheman” post=“25516” timestamp=“1376423574”]
Im in.
[/quote]

[img]http://images.wikia.com/glee/images/0/0c/HELL-YEAH.jpg[/img]

Nutnut

You missed that opportunity Tuck! ;D

ghostlander

[quote name=“Nutnut” post=“25475” timestamp=“1376411181”]
So if i was to roll out a PPS pool for FTC, who would use it? Would start at a 4% fee and see how it goes.[/quote]

I’d suggest to start PPS after we implement advanced checkpointing. You may be into a big loss otherwise. PPS pools pay for orphans and you can run deep into these if we get under attack again.

Nutnut

Indeed - hence the fees.

We have no idea how long the ACP will be though. I have a whee pot of coins to support some losses and hey, if it bring more miners over… still researching atm but just wanted an idea of users.

If someone has an update on the ACP (and a diff fix which may negate the need for ACP) then please speak up. ;)

sp495

[quote name=“svennand” post=“25507” timestamp=“1376418532”]
[quote author=sp495 link=topic=3329.msg25504#msg25504 date=1376417834]
In an effort to be more constructive so that my replies aren’t taken as hostile, I think 2% is fair. Of course it’s your decision. I personally prefer it to be donation driven but I understand you want a steady income to offset costs.
[/quote]

As nutnut said, do you know what pps is? (not meant in a bad way)

The reason i ask is because you prefer a pps pool to be donation driven?

Its not nutnut that wants a steady income,he is gambling!=)
he wants to offer miners a steady income…
[/quote]

Ok guys educate me, I know what pplns is so how is pps more of a risk for the pool operator? Why is pps more risky for you than pplns? What is the added risk? And why does this risk comply you to add a 4% fee as opposed to 3, or 5, etc. What do miners gain for joining a pps pool at 4% as opposed to a donation driven pplns or other type of pool? It’s this whole risk thing that I’m not understanding. Again, not meaning to be hostile or a bother, just want to understand what on initial reading sounds like a poor deal. Not implying that it is a poor deal and conceding a lack of knowledge on my part.

svennand

PPS (Pay Per Share) as opposed to the other payment method is a system which consider every share as a valid payable share.
That means that the miner know exactly how much he get each day since all his work is made valid.
The miner gets paid 24/7 disregarding if a block is found or not, or if a block is confirmed or made orphan.

No need for the worker to wait for confirmed blocks or for a block to be found, all he needs to do is deliver shares thats get paid right after delivered.

You may see the risk for the pool operator for using this kind of method…
Just look at a scenario where the network are under attack, all the miners still gets paid. but when the blocks finally confirmes for the pool operator they get orphaned…
Thats “money” right out of operators wallet. Also if the pool has a dry run where they dont find a block, the miners still gets paid out of pools wallet.

The miner no longer needs to worry about luck/inconsistent payouts. They get paid for a share period.
Hence the higher fees since the risk is all on the pool operator ;)

A shorter explaination:
*pplns you add shares in a round which then finds a certain amount of blocks and you get paid according to that.
*pps you add a share, get paid for that share, then add a new share, get paid for that to. no luck involved/no confirms involved (no risk, steady payout according to you hashing
power)

Nutnut

Spot on.

On a pplns pool at the current difficulty block difficulty, going on averages it will take 174637 shares of difficulty 64 to find a block.

Now, if we (the miners) find a block in 1000 shares that just means that we get a share of the 200 coins after 1000 shares as opposed to 174637 and the miners are quids in. The pool op gets nothing (other than donations if people are kind enough). That scenario would make each share worth 0.2 ftc… Not a bad reward!

Now if we have a crappy round and we are 300000 shares in before we find a block, the miners are loosing coz they haven’t been payed out in a while. The pool op doesn’t really care though cos he won’t payout until the block is found AND CONFIRMED.

Now, in a PPS world that all changes. It becomes pool op vs miners in terms of who makes the most coin. ;)

Each share would be worth ~0.00114 (174637/200). Regardless of whether a block was found, the share was stale or the block is orphaned. Miners are paid for EVERY share they submit.

If a block was found after 1000 shares on a PPS pool, the operator only pays out a total of 1.145 ftc. And he’s quids in. The miners loose out though. On the flip side if a block is found after 300000 shares, the pool op has had to pay out 343ftc for the round so has to cough up 143ftc from his own wallet. Miners don’t care anymore as they know they’ll earn pretty much whatever the calculator says they will earn. No more “I only got 80% of my calculated…”

Now, as a final example. Take the recent attacks, most pools lost a good number of blocks as orphans. The pool op would foot the bill for that on pps! If we had 5 blocks orphaned the op losses 1000ftc, the miners on the other hand don’t care, they’re spending quite happily.

That’s why there’s a high fee for true pps pools. The pools ops take the risk not the miners.

Coinotrons rbpps is a pps pool with a twist - it will only pay once a block is confirmed so they don’t run the risk of orphans. The risk is shared between the miners and the ops hence a lower fee. If you want them to have the risk of orphans you’ll be paying 5%.

Hope that helps.

Nut.

rob_1990

[quote name=“Nutnut” post=“25543” timestamp=“1376466305”]
Spot on.