Diff trap... Again.
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[quote name=“Nutnut” post=“25716” timestamp=“1376653584”]
Haha, dude, i think you misunderstand me. It’s not a pint or mining on my pool that will make me stick around it’s smoothing out the hashrate/difficulty spike so i don’t have to mine it back down for the arseholes in the troll box to decsend on us for 8 hours only to ramp it back up again.
[/quote]Actually it’s playing out as I predicted before the faster change.
It used to 6 weeks stuck high maybe a week low. Now it’s a few days high, then 8 hours low. If we make it faster, it will be 2 hours high, 10 minutes low.
Granted that 40% change limit is a life saver. But this is a slippery slope. I’m going to make a slight adjustment to my design plans.
I overshot trying to be nice to everybody. Screw that. Time to get real.
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[quote name=“zerodrama” post=“25800” timestamp=“1376781331”]
It used to 6 weeks stuck high maybe a week low. Now it’s a few days high, then 8 hours low. If we make it faster, it will be 2 hours high, 10 minutes low.
[/quote]There will be high or low no more if done properly.
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[quote name=“ghostlander” post=“25802” timestamp=“1376788845”]
[quote author=zerodrama link=topic=3327.msg25800#msg25800 date=1376781331]
It used to 6 weeks stuck high maybe a week low. Now it’s a few days high, then 8 hours low. If we make it faster, it will be 2 hours high, 10 minutes low.
[/quote]There will be high or low no more if done properly.
[/quote]There won’t be any incentive to invest in hardware.
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[quote name=“zerodrama” post=“25804” timestamp=“1376789568”]
[quote author=ghostlander link=topic=3327.msg25802#msg25802 date=1376788845]
[quote author=zerodrama link=topic=3327.msg25800#msg25800 date=1376781331]
It used to 6 weeks stuck high maybe a week low. Now it’s a few days high, then 8 hours low. If we make it faster, it will be 2 hours high, 10 minutes low.
[/quote]There will be high or low no more if done properly.
[/quote]There won’t be any incentive to invest in hardware.
[/quote]Nope, in fact since calculating your return should be a steady curve not a sine wave. I usually prefer to get a steady payout to pay my cost then a fluctuation in payout.
at some point 2-3 weeks ago we got a soft spot where we got 2-3 diff change of nearly 0 and had a hashrate of 2.8gh/s and diff around 144. then price spike and goes again with the 41% limiter.
I see the 41% like a rev limiter for a car you should have it to protect you not always hit it. the actual problem with coin hoppers is that the actual calculation make full gas or full brake and always overshoot. (so a possibility can bee to apply a damping factor of 0.5 to the retarget knowing that the retarget is not 1 for 1 as it is for Bitcoin and Litecoin. note Litecoin has 10% swing also now depending on other coins)
for the hoppers we need to understand that most don’t just get the most profitable, but use a select 4-5 and mine the one most profitable from that, many doing it by hand for the day or part of the day. ex. Look at the hash rate switch from LTC to FTC when FTC becomes more profitable then LTC ~1Gh/s switch over the 3-4 hours that follow the switch in profitability. so not been on first top (as we have not been in many of the recent high we got 4-5 on coinchoose and low in 15-20) a 7-8 spot should give us a likely 3-3.5Gh/s steady with some hoppers that will becomes more steady as we will most of the time meet their criteria. (steady price with a market and profitability adj for stale. some also look at 7 days profitability)
what is important i think is that we keep a range near 41.4% max adjustment for 504 blocks
so the 12 blocks looking back 504 blocks should make a small change like 1% each (42*1% composite would make like 47-48% max). this would keep time warp attack to at least actual efficiency and probably make it more efficient.a good timing of time warp and big retarget over 12 block even if looking at 504 back can make a diff increase that can be worst then what we have even with 30-40% of the hash rate. the probability of success are just proportional to your hash rate in the network and can be retry every 12 blocks. so you place block in future at some point getting diff down a bit artificially when you hit the retarget. so at some point after you make 504 block after block with time in the past as mush as you can. if you get both side on a retarget you can get ~3h lower time so mostly a max up retarget.
I would suggest 1% with a damping factor of .25 so been off by 4% would retarget by 1% been off by 1% would retarget by 0.25%. since we retarget over 504 blocks this would minimize the effect of luck/badluck of the timing for the 0&504 time difference to smooth it.
a more complexe formula that take 41.4% over 504 blocks and allocate for each 12 blocks a retarget greater then 1% can be done, and can have a better result. but this come with a risk of opening other attack vector for time warp
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1 word (or is it 2) that sums up what no-one really took into account way back when…
MULTIPOOLS
They were our savior once now they could kill us. More multipools are popping up daily and it’s those that we need to manipulate to keep our hashrates more stable.
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[quote name=“Nutnut” post=“25812” timestamp=“1376815361”]
1 word (or is it 2) that sums up what no-one really took into account way back when…MULTIPOOLS
They were our savior once now they could kill us. More multipools are popping up daily and it’s those that we need to [b]manipulate[/b] to keep our hashrates more stable.
[/quote]Manipulate?
I agree that Multipools might be the doom of all alt-coins, because they put them in a downward spiral (difficulty and exchange rate wise). But manipulate them? Really?
What we have to do is create a stable upward trend - so no one keeps looking at those multipools, choinchooses and coinwarzes any more. And only mines FTC.
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OK, you go create that uptrend. You need stability to create an uptrend.
Meanwhile, i’ll hope bush adresses the re-targets that will smooth out the HUGE drops in profitability that causes coinchoose etc to lower our rank that causes the multipools to swing away.
When i say manipulate i mean keep out profitability stable so that the multipools keep mining us.
We’re going round in circles now. There’s clearly 2 different schools of thought so can we just agree to disagree.
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[quote name=“zerodrama” post=“25800” timestamp=“1376781331”]
[quote author=Nutnut link=topic=3327.msg25716#msg25716 date=1376653584]
Haha, dude, i think you misunderstand me. It’s not a pint or mining on my pool that will make me stick around it’s smoothing out the hashrate/difficulty spike so i don’t have to mine it back down for the arseholes in the troll box to decsend on us for 8 hours only to ramp it back up again.
[/quote]Actually it’s playing out as I predicted before the faster change.
It used to 6 weeks stuck high maybe a week low. Now it’s a few days high, then 8 hours low. If we make it faster, it will be 2 hours high, 10 minutes low.
Granted that 40% change limit is a life saver. But this is a slippery slope. I’m going to make a slight adjustment to my design plans.
I overshot trying to be nice to everybody. Screw that. Time to get real.
[/quote]you do realise that if the 40% hadent been implemented it would be 8hour low then 6weeks high again? the hashrate is higher now. the 33000 coldfork was due to ONE large mining pump.
i do not concur in the statement 2hours high/10 min low.
with a faster diff adjustment fewer miners will keep switching between ftc and other coins
since the diff will change with smaller increament, and with shorter time periode. -
[quote name=“Nutnut” post=“25815” timestamp=“1376816461”]
OK, you go create that uptrend. You need stability to create an uptrend.Meanwhile, i’ll hope bush adresses the re-targets that will smooth out the HUGE drops in profitability that causes coinchoose etc to lower our rank that causes the multipools to swing away.
When i say manipulate i mean keep out profitability stable so that the multipools keep mining us.
We’re going round in circles now. There’s clearly 2 different schools of thought so can we just agree to disagree.
[/quote]Radcoin and you are right where you agree that not all of this can be solved with tech, you have asked for stability and you are right that’s why on the PR team we need to get out there and get FTC in to more hands so that it’s controlled by a few. We are working hard to do this and if you have any ideas, or have heard some that you think could be getting more attention please tell me.
In the mean time thank-you so much for your patience, we couldn’t do this without you.
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[quote name=“groll” post=“25806” timestamp=“1376799747”]
what is important i think is that we keep a range near 41.4% max adjustment for 504 blocks
so the 12 blocks looking back 504 blocks should make a small change like 1% each (42*1% composite would make like 47-48% max). this would keep time warp attack to at least actual efficiency and probably make it more efficient.a good timing of time warp and big retarget over 12 block even if looking at 504 back can make a diff increase that can be worst then what we have even with 30-40% of the hash rate. the probability of success are just proportional to your hash rate in the network and can be retry every 12 blocks. so you place block in future at some point getting diff down a bit artificially when you hit the retarget. so at some point after you make 504 block after block with time in the past as mush as you can. if you get both side on a retarget you can get ~3h lower time so mostly a max up retarget.
[/quote]We can surely set a 1% maximum on difficulty retarget every 12 blocks to keep performance close to current 41.42% over 504 blocks. Additional restriction on future time stamps and increased nMedianTimeSpan reduce negative effects of time warp attacks. Advanced checkpointing addresses the problem of valid blocks being orphaned by attackers and decreases necessary number of confirmations for transactions to just a few. Is there anything else worth to be implemented?
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As it seems appropriate to this thread (to me anyway), and because I don’t really feel like I got any good answer as to why it isn’t feasable, I will inject this comment again from one of the previous threads:
[quote name=“SixGun” post=“16421” timestamp=“1371649501”]
Why must DiffIncrease be equal to DiffDecrease? The issue I see is that we are having difficulty maintaining the 2.5 minute block target. What would be the negative potential if the 41% increase algorithm was separated from the algorithm that determines the diff decrease based on dropping hash power. The goal being to maintain the block time, not the profitability factor. Thinking long term, the survival of any currency depends on a consumer’s ability to use it. What I see hurting the FTC value is the long block times in period of reduced hash power.Wouldn’t this set FTC apart from other coins (not just alts)? Thinking of a currency from a payment processing perspective, digital currencies will [i]never[/i] be able to reach parity with actual cash {not thinking of bank to bank transfers} unless there was [b][i]instantaneous[/i][/b] confirmation. Part of the reason credit cards work so well for consumers is that they [i]perceive[/i] the confirmation to be instantaneous, just like if they handed over paper bills. Let’s not get into the semantics of credit as that is whole other discussion.
My point is that consumers/users of a medium of payment don’t think about the technical aspects. If we are trying to build a long term currency/economy we must remove the variability of payment processing in some way. Since transaction confirmation depends solely on the miner nodes on the network…it follows that the time period to confirm must be as fast as possible nearly irregardless of the technical backbone (miners) of the system.
The way I understand it the positive benefit of digital currency is to move [i]large[/i] amounts of currency quickly, with moderate anonymity. Cash is king because I can go down the street and hand over a bundle to my neighbor to buy his car. The legality, and proper reporting, of that transaction isn’t and shouldn’t be up to the producer of the currency.
I’m not speaking about the diff change and it’s impact on miners necessarily, rather I am thinking about it’s affect on the viability and perceived stability/staying power of currency (FTC). What I perceive as killing the network’s strength right now is that we had a huge jump in hash power which necessarily raised the difficulty (and by proxy the profitability and market value), however once the difficulty adjusted accordingly and miners jumped off the network strength suffered.
This may be a very naive point of view from an admitted n00b, but please help me understand why this wouldn’t be beneficial for long term success. We need to think ahead to the days when FTC is humming along at 5 TH/s and suddenly a major internet backbone goes dark and we lose a significant portion of the network nodes for a short period. The network needs to be able to maintain it’s confirmation times or [i]consumers[/i] lose faith.
Again, please be kind…
[/quote]A couple of notes:
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as pointed out by zerodrama a little farther down on the OT, I should have said “The goal being to maintain the block time, [b][i]and subsequently[/i][/b] the profitability factor.” instead of “not”. I didn’t mean that they way I expressed it.
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Also, after some more time mining {can’t mine currently, but hope to be back up this weekend} and more time reading these posts and learning from more knowledgeable here {I greatly respect both NutNut and Svennand}, I am definitely thinking about the difficulty and it’s affect on miners. I realize now that I was before, but didn’t really know it. :-\
Anyway, that’s my thoughts. Been lurking for a while, but this topic is dear to me as I have been fighting internally about whether to invest into more mining gear.
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Will you look at that, we´re at 12kM/hash again ::)
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Even though there is the occasional tumult in these posts I do find they are productive and very interesting. I think this is a problem that is not isolated to Feathercoin. What about a Google Hangout discussion?
C
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[quote name=“Simkill” post=“25959” timestamp=“1376995085”]
[quote author=svennand link=topic=3327.msg25948#msg25948 date=1376978175]
Will you look at that, we´re at 12kM/hash again ::)
[/quote]
You must have turned your rig back on :P
[/quote]hehe lol i wished have measly 16MKhash, would have had more if it wasnt for not having any more spare Amp reserves in fusebox=P
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Feathercoin seems to be doing just fine against the plethora of new coins. It tends to be in the top 15 of average “highest profitability” coins.
I’ve spent the last two weeks testing multicoin and middlecoin - so you can call me a cruiser this past month. I wasn’t overly impressed with my results. What I found is that I am generally better off mining Feathercoin exclusively.
Mining for DGC or WDC drives me nuts because of the huge stale / orphan rate. Even on the best network, you are not going to get very close to “estimated” coins per hour/day. Although one would think they were “making bank” by being on a pool switcher, it all evens down to a lower return due to a dozen reasons. (Falling prices/diff settings/stales/orphans/switching time/pool luck.)
Also, notice the weakness in prices? The ever lower prices? All of these automatic sell transactions on multi-pools don’t happen in a vacuum.
So with that, I’d prefer to see more Feathercoin adoption among the business community. In the end, e-commerce transactions using Feathercoin will be the vital bread and butter for success.
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+1. Very well said!
[quote name=“digitalfog” post=“26006” timestamp=“1377024894”]
Although one would think they were “making bank” by being on a pool switcher, it all evens down to a lower return due to a dozen reasons. (Falling prices/diff settings/stales/orphans/switching time/pool luck.)
[/quote]And not to forget the tiny volume on the smaller exchanges like Crytpsy, Vircurex or Bter.
One coin might be listed as #1 on coinchoose, with a profitability of 700%, and an exchange rate of 0.00005xxx.But in reality you get this 0.00005xxx only for a handful of coins. All your other coins you have to sell for much less. It’s not uncommon that the whole Bid side for one of those coins is only 1 or 1.5 BTC - all the way down from 0.00005xxx to 0.00003xxx.
So in reality the 700% profitability from coinchoose are more like 300%. Or even less …
[quote]
So with that, I’d prefer to see more Feathercoin adoption among the business community. In the end, e-commerce transactions using Feathercoin will be the vital bread and butter for success.
[/quote]Yes, absolutely!
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[quote name=“Radacoin” post=“26017” timestamp=“1377030626”]
+1. Very well said!And not to forget the tiny volume on the smaller exchanges like Crytpsy, Vircurex or Bter.
One coin might be listed as #1 on coinchoose, with a profitability of 700%, and an exchange rate of 0.00005xxx.But in reality you get this 0.00005xxx only for a handful of coins. All your other coins you have to sell for much less. It’s not uncommon that the whole Bid side for one of those coins is only 1 or 1.5 BTC - all the way down from 0.00005xxx to 0.00003xxx.
[/quote]
Thank you…and absolutely! Vacuous bid side markets are alive and well in alt. crypto land.
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[quote name=“digitalfog” post=“26006” timestamp=“1377024894”]
Feathercoin seems to be doing just fine against the plethora of new coins. It tends to be in the top 15 of average “highest profitability” coins.I’ve spent the last two weeks testing multicoin and middlecoin - so you can call me a cruiser this past month. I wasn’t overly impressed with my results. What I found is that I am generally better off mining Feathercoin exclusively.
Mining for DGC or WDC drives me nuts because of the huge stale / orphan rate. Even on the best network, you are not going to get very close to “estimated” coins per hour/day. Although one would think they were “making bank” by being on a pool switcher, it all evens down to a lower return due to a dozen reasons. (Falling prices/diff settings/stales/orphans/switching time/pool luck.)
Also, notice the weakness in prices? The ever lower prices? All of these automatic sell transactions on multi-pools don’t happen in a vacuum.
So with that, I’d prefer to see more Feathercoin adoption among the business community. In the end, e-commerce transactions using Feathercoin will be the vital bread and butter for success.
[/quote]Both DGC and WDC has had issues lately so a pro “switch miner” would most likely not direct his power there…
As regarding multipools, they are noe entirely the only to “blame”.If someone have a farm of miners its not that much to it to create a script to switch coins your mining.
For example: say the diff of feathercoin is getting pumped up.
Now the only thing he needs is to have a script running that reads the feed from feathercoin stat, then have a method that runs and awaits for the stat value to change.
Example in java (its just dirty unusable code, but hope you get the idea):private void setCoin(){
double ftcDiff == the feed…
if(ftcDiff < 200){
updateFtcDiff();
}
else{ runCmdToCgminer(); }
}Now he only needs to set up several pool options in cgminer, and make the java program send an request to cgminer to change pool…
If i were to actually create something like this i would do it much more aggressive and creative.
Counting in all kinds of things like exchange value, list of coin options i know would trade easily and so on…Example if i were to mine novacoin now and sell it for ftc i would get 25% more ftc coins in the same amount of time… that means while the loyal
miner gets 750 coins in a day, the same miner could get 1000coins in a day just by doing some effort in script controlling.This is what i think needs to be dealt with. As long as the pump/dump continues on the coin i cant see neither the diff or the value go anywhere anytime soon.
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[quote name=“svennand” post=“26023” timestamp=“1377032375”]
As long as the pump/dump continues on the coin i cant see neither the diff or the value go anywhere anytime soon.
[/quote]I tend to agree with you.
The diff swings need to be addressed in the very near future. imho.
(-> stability … my most favourite word it seems *g*)In the bigger picture digitalfog (“In the end, e-commerce transactions using Feathercoin will be the vital bread and butter for success.”) is spot on.
Can we agree on this?
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[quote name=“Radacoin” post=“26024” timestamp=“1377034298”]
[quote author=svennand link=topic=3327.msg26023#msg26023 date=1377032375]
As long as the pump/dump continues on the coin i cant see neither the diff or the value go anywhere anytime soon.
[/quote]I tend to agree with you.
The diff swings need to be addressed in the very near future. imho.
(-> stability … my most favourite word it seems *g*)In the bigger picture digitalfog (“In the end, e-commerce transactions using Feathercoin will be the vital bread and butter for success.”) is spot on.
Can we agree on this?
[/quote]of course.
im just adressing the current problem :Das soon as this is the past im looking forward to get the coin wider spread 8)
EDIT:
Now the network is down to 2000Mhash, that 1/6 of the previouse hashrate before diff increase.
