UNOCS - Update Posted in Sticky
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[quote name=“Markus11” post=“23289” timestamp=“1374918348”]
Selling your coins changes what exactly?
If youre unsatisfied performane the moves which satisfy you but please dont share it here … all you do is creating bad mood.
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[quote name=“Markus11” post=“23289” timestamp=“1374918348”]
Selling your coins changes what exactly?
If youre unsatisfied performane the moves which satisfy you but please dont share it here … all you do is creating bad mood - capitalistic pov … thays what i call support
[/quote]No, that’s actually exactly what this forum is for: The sharing of opinions related to the currency, and not just the ones you happen to like either. I’ve done nothing but support the members of this community with my efforts, and you better believe that a capitalistic PoV is appropriate when we’re [u][i][b]discussing the performance of a currency[/b][/i][/u].
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Right,but here is NOT the place to scare people to get cheap coins … it isnt all black as you paint it.
Get your profit and leave this place for good … oh forgot it doesnt take a rocket scientists to see the potencial of ftc … means you will stay longer here and dump around … boring news, jmo;-)
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[quote name=“Markus11” post=“23298” timestamp=“1374920795”]
Right,but here is NOT the place to scare people to get cheap coins … it isnt all black as you paint it.
[/quote]Agreed. Please do not spread what can be interpreted as FUD.
I’d rather not get any more complaints about this thread. By all means, state your opinions but if it comes across as FUD, I will have to moderate. Please don’t make me do this.
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[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“23295” timestamp=“1374920392”]
No, that’s actually exactly what this forum is for: The sharing of opinions related to the currency, and not just the ones you happen to like either. I’ve done nothing but support the members of this community with my efforts, and you better believe that a capitalistic PoV is appropriate when we’re [u][i][b]discussing the performance of a currency[/b][/i][/u].
[/quote]Agreed. If these (meaning all) cryptocurrencies were actually designed to “take down central banks” they wouldn’t spend so much time talking about what features are coming one day and instead just do it, release it and let it do it’s thing on it’s own merits without the want for glory and profit.
[move][b]These coins are for profit only.[/b][/move]
I’ve yet to see a coin that’s serious about taking the necessary step to end all of our misery by actually offering a crypto that is a feasible alternative to fiat. I’ll keep waiting though. Until then, I’m going to trade the hell out of these coins [b]for profit[/b], just like the devs, just like the associate devs, just like the managers, pool operators and on and on.
In my opinion, no one behind any existing cryptocurrency is in this for anything other than profit. If I’m wrong, prove it to me and the rest of us with your actions.
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[quote name=“spynappels” post=“23306” timestamp=“1374923525”]
[quote author=Markus11 link=topic=2934.msg23298#msg23298 date=1374920795]
Right,but here is NOT the place to scare people to get cheap coins … it isnt all black as you paint it.
[/quote]Agreed. Please do not spread what can be interpreted as FUD.
I’d rather not get any more complaints about this thread. By all means, state your opinions but if it comes across as FUD, I will have to moderate. Please don’t make me do this.
[/quote]Are you suggesting that beeing critical to unocs in the unocs thread is interpreted as fud?
Kevlar has some valid and interesting points… -
[quote name=“svennand” post=“23318” timestamp=“1374927733”]
Are you suggesting that beeing critical to unocs in the unocs thread is interpreted as fud?
Kevlar has some valid and interesting points…
[/quote]No, I’m not. I happen to agree with a lot of what Kevlar has said. I was directly referring to the suggestion that every one sell their coins as they were unlikely to be worth much soon. That mirrors what is said in the trollbox everyday, and is not appropriate here.
Like I said, criticism is fine, opinion is fine, but if I get complaints, I have to look at them and if I feel they are warranted, I have to act on them.
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[quote name=“spynappels” post=“23323” timestamp=“1374931129”]
[quote author=svennand link=topic=2934.msg23318#msg23318 date=1374927733]
Are you suggesting that beeing critical to unocs in the unocs thread is interpreted as fud?
Kevlar has some valid and interesting points…
[/quote]No, I’m not. I happen to agree with a lot of what Kevlar has said. I was directly referring to the suggestion that every one sell their coins as they were unlikely to be worth much soon. That mirrors what is said in the trollbox everyday, and is not appropriate here.
Like I said, criticism is fine, opinion is fine, but if I get complaints, I have to look at them and if I feel they are warranted, I have to act on them.
[/quote]Ok, just needed to know that there were no form of “silencing” going on. since we´re an open comunity and everyones ideas/conserns should be hear/responded to :)
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Seriously,I’m really confused about this situation.Can’t you guys just give a exact time about UNOCS’s launch?We’re waiting so so so long（Almost a week since the irresponsible delayed）. :(。BTW：keep update the latest info about this in the “UNOCS Bridge - Update July 24 â€,ok?thx.
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PROOF the oposit TUCK;-)
What a childish attitude … everyone should do what he/she wants … but avoid to DUMP the coin and ruin its reputation because of … hot air and greed to get cheapies … banana?;-) -
[quote name=“Markus11” post=“23354” timestamp=“1374946525”]
PROOF the oposit TUCK;-)
What a childish attitude … everyone should do what he/she wants … but avoid to DUMP the coin and ruin its reputation because of … hot air and greed to get cheapies … banana?;-)
[/quote]I’m lost Markus (but I like you!). Perhaps I worded my post poorly. I don’t feel I took a shot at anyone or any coin. I spoke what I think is fact and nothing more. No FUD intended, those are my honest feelings.
I’m sorry if you don’t agree, but I have a hard time seeing anything other than profit as a driving force behind any existing coins. Perhaps the problem is we have a different opinion on “profit”?
Profit (for me personally) = Me obtaining more cryptocoins without using USD.
I have no problem with a dev or anyone profiting (in fiat) off these coins. In fact, as I’ve stated, I believe that is their sole purpose and that’s not a problem for me, I was just hoping for more. But, I’ll take what I can get since it’s still better than fiat.
In fact, as I’ve stated to Bush (or some dev), I have no problem with coins being premined by devs (I’m not saying FTC is premined, stawp) since I feel they deserve to be paid for their work. But, I do understand the philosophy behind having a problem with premines and I can fully support that position without interfering with my own. In other words, I don’t care either way.
My problem is, pretending that this isn’t about profit, when all signals indicate otherwise. Again, that’s not an issue for me personally. Profit all you want, hence why I said I will too. I’m not in this solely for profit, but I’m sure not going to turn profit down when I see an opportunity (like this one).
I don’t feel anything I’ve said has ruined the reputation of anything in any way possible, nor do I believe I possess such awesome power.
I stated my opinions and what I believe to be factual information. I don’t remember using the word “dump”, but if I did the only reason would be to reference someone else using it (see fontas) in jest.
I routinely ditch most all of a cryptocoin to purchase more at a lower price. Doesn’t everyone?!
I assumed we all picked our spots, sold off and re-bought more lower (profit).
Maybe I’m doing something wrong, but [b]I’m trying to obtain the most cryptocurrency I can[/b] (profiting) [b]while subverting my masters into non-existence[/b].
You’re more than welcome to sit on your existing stash or buy more with fiat. If my way is childish, so be it. I’m a child prodigy then! =)
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[quote name=“Tuck Fheman” post=“23377” timestamp=“1374958356”]
[quote author=Markus11 link=topic=2934.msg23354#msg23354 date=1374946525]
PROOF the oposit TUCK;-)
What a childish attitude … everyone should do what he/she wants … but avoid to DUMP the coin and ruin its reputation because of … hot air and greed to get cheapies … banana?;-)
[/quote]I’m lost Markus (but I like you!). Perhaps I worded my post poorly. I don’t feel I took a shot at anyone or any coin. I spoke what I think is fact and nothing more. No FUD intended, those are my honest feelings.
I’m sorry if you don’t agree, but I have a hard time seeing anything other than profit as a driving force behind any existing coins. Perhaps the problem is we have a different opinion on “profit”?
Profit (for me personally) = Me obtaining more cryptocoins without using USD.
I have no problem with a dev or anyone profiting (in fiat) off these coins. In fact, as I’ve stated, I believe that is their sole purpose and that’s not a problem for me, I was just hoping for more. But, I’ll take what I can get since it’s still better than fiat.
In fact, as I’ve stated to Bush (or some dev), I have no problem with coins being premined by devs (I’m not saying FTC is premined, stawp) since I feel they deserve to be paid for their work. But, I do understand the philosophy behind having a problem with premines and I can fully support that position without interfering with my own. In other words, I don’t care either way.
My problem is, pretending that this isn’t about profit, when all signals indicate otherwise. Again, that’s not an issue for me personally. Profit all you want, hence why I said I will too. I’m not in this solely for profit, but I’m sure not going to turn profit down when I see an opportunity (like this one).
I don’t feel anything I’ve said has ruined the reputation of anything in any way possible, nor do I believe I possess such awesome power.
I stated my opinions and what I believe to be factual information. I don’t remember using the word “dump”, but if I did the only reason would be to reference someone else using it (see fontas) in jest.
I routinely ditch most all of a cryptocoin to purchase more at a lower price. Doesn’t everyone?!
I assumed we all picked our spots, sold off and re-bought more lower (profit).
Maybe I’m doing something wrong, but [b]I’m trying to obtain the most cryptocurrency I can[/b] (profiting) [b]while subverting my masters into non-existence[/b].
You’re more than welcome to sit on your existing stash or buy more with fiat. If my way is childish, so be it. I’m a child prodigy then! =)
[/quote]This is all about money no matter which way you turn it. I’ve treated it like a hobby but more like I occasionally dabbled in wood whittling and sell my work. I enjoy the challenges and discussions on the venture. Also, I like that I make a little doing it. I don’t really care about premine unless the developer skips town.
Until recently I hadn’t put USD to BTC. I got my coins from mining then trading. The mining part helped me understand the markets better. Kind of see whose put more into their effort of crypto. I have my stash of ftc and I then bet with the rest. Though i might start dipping into it.
We just got major hash for a bit on ftc. d2’s pool stated 30ghash and the site tracker got up to 10gh. When this happens my mining does nothing but sits there… I don’t want to goto a bigger pool but I might have to just get some return or another general coin.
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[quote name=“Tuck Fheman” post=“23377” timestamp=“1374958356”]
My problem is, pretending that this isn’t about profit, when all signals indicate otherwise. Again, that’s not an issue for me personally. Profit all you want, hence why I said I will too. I’m not in this solely for profit, but I’m sure not going to turn profit down when I see an opportunity (like this one).…
I routinely ditch most all of a cryptocoin to purchase more at a lower price. Doesn’t everyone?!
I assumed we all picked our spots, sold off and re-bought more lower (profit).
Maybe I’m doing something wrong, but [b]I’m trying to obtain the most cryptocurrency I can[/b] (profiting) [b]while subverting my masters into non-existence[/b].
You’re more than welcome to sit on your existing stash or buy more with fiat. If my way is childish, so be it. I’m a child prodigy then! =)
[/quote]Yeah, I thought the same thing too. It’s actually part of a healthy ecosystem: The price dips, the price corrects, the price soars, the price corrects. All of it driven by speculation, and here I’m being accused of speculating in a way that people don’t like so they tell me I shouldn’t be here? You can keep your coins but you can’t silence speculators. Meanwhile I’ll be buying a small island and inviting Tuck over so we can drink mojitos and feel sorry for the people who held onto their coins through the dip instead of buying low and selling high.
[move][b]It really is all about the profit. Get used to it.[/b][/move]
We’re not selling good vibes here. We’re developing a currency for the next generation that will free our children from government oppression and centralization of authority. Wait, what’s that you say? We’re centralizing the authority with the new features we’re rolling out? And you don’t want people to talk about their trading habits for fear of [u][i]you losing your own value[/i][/u]?
*facepalm*
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[quote name=“wesphily” post=“23413” timestamp=“1374986405”]
The trick with check pointing is that you don’t have to subscribe if you don’t want to. Also, the number of people agreeing on the checkpoint will keep it decentralized.Finally, PoS does not stop 51% attack. All it does is slow it down.
[/quote]
[s]
Im quite excited regarding how the checkpoint will work, regarding the pure technical part of it.
Will it be evenly distributed toward third parties/distributed among many persons and such to keep it decentralized?[/s]Edit:
Actually this question has nothing to do in the unocs thread -
[quote name=“wesphily” post=“23413” timestamp=“1374986405”]
Finally, PoS does not stop 51% attack. All it does is slow it down.
[/quote]Vague statement. No instrument can stop 51% attacks completely if attack cost is negligible totally. If someone can afford to spend a milliard euros on mining hardware, deployment facilities, some personnel and electricity, he can destroy anything Bitcoin included. PoS alone doesn’t stop attacks either. PoW + PoS do it better than PoW alone. PoW + PoS + advanced checkpointing do it even better than PoW + PoS. And so on. Our security objective is to make 51% attacks as expensive as possible with valid miners affected as little as possible.
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[quote name=“wesphily” post=“23413” timestamp=“1374986405”]
The trick with check pointing is that you don’t have to subscribe if you don’t want to. Also, the number of people agreeing on the checkpoint will keep it decentralized.Finally, PoS does not stop 51% attack. All it does is slow it down.
[/quote]Then all it takes is one person not subscribing to disagree, creating forks in the chain. What then? Sucks to be that disenfranchised guy? What if a majority of miners form and turn off checkpointing, and then someone on high rolls back some transactions with a checkpoint? You lose > 51% of your hashpower, making your new forked shorter chain vulnerable to a 51% attack!
You’ve not solved any problems with this solution, you’ve just created more problems and a forked chain that only you and your ‘centralized list’ of mining pools deem valid. The problem IS that more than 51% of the work is controlled already, so all you’ve done is centralize the power to decide the fate of the chain AWAY from miners. If someone is deciding who those people are and maintaining that list, then the power is centralized to the owner of the list. Someone has to say, “Hey, we should checkpoint -this- chain in order to eliminate -that- fork.” and that’s centralization. Someone has to maintain the list of voters, and that’s centralization. It’s bad news all the way to the bank. The design is 1 CPU cycle==1 vote, and you’ve made that equation meaningless, because now 99% of the network can disagree with you, the central authority, and still ‘lose’.
If I were an attacker, I’d take massive advantage of this. I’d start by forking the chain with a longer chain. This would cause transactions to be rolled back, while new ones get added. Then you checkpoint a point in the old chain AFTER the fork in order to get the network back on the chain, causing all the transactions between now and the time of the first fork to get rolled back. At this point, you have 2 active forks: Those who didn’t subscribe are on the forked, longer chain, and those who did are on the original, shorter chain, dividing your network power. Then I’d just do it again, and again, and again, and again, each time causing transactions to be rolled back, and at a reduced cost since you’ve divided your PoW resources with your checkpoint. I’d probably attack the original chain again, since Cryptsy would undoubtedly be on it having re-enabled FTC again after the attack, and pull it off again with less effort because some portion of your hashes are still mining the longer forked chain since they didn’t subscribe.
This is basically your worst case scenario, and you’ve made it EASIER for the attacker to pull off by introducing ACS. Every time it happens, confirmed transactions are unconfirmed, people lose money, and confidence plummets. This is without question the worst possible move to make.
Finally, PoS does not ‘slow down 51% attacks’, it makes them monetarily unfeasible and highly unproductive since the attacker would have to own 51% of the PoW AND 51% of the currency itself. It’s a GREAT solution, and if inflation is a concern, PoB is a great solution for that.
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[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“23422” timestamp=“1375006405”]
[quote author=wesphily link=topic=2934.msg23413#msg23413 date=1374986405]
The trick with check pointing is that you don’t have to subscribe if you don’t want to. Also, the number of people agreeing on the checkpoint will keep it decentralized.Finally, PoS does not stop 51% attack. All it does is slow it down.
[/quote]Then all it takes is one person not subscribing to disagree, creating forks in the chain. What then? Sucks to be that disenfranchised guy? What if a majority of miners form and turn off checkpointing, and then someone on high rolls back some transactions with a checkpoint? You lose > 51% of your hashpower, making your new forked shorter chain vulnerable to a 51% attack!
Wait, didn’t the attacker already have 51% to begin with? Well now we’re screwed…
You’ve not solved any problems with this solution, you’ve just created more problems and a forked chain that only you and your ‘centralized list’ of mining pools deem valid. The problem IS that more than 51% of the work is controlled already, so all you’ve done is centralize the power to decide the fate of the chain AWAY from miners. If someone is deciding who those people are and maintaining that list, then the power is centralized to the owner of the list. Someone has to say, “Hey, we should checkpoint -this- chain in order to eliminate -that- fork.” and that’s centralization. Someone has to maintain the list of voters, and that’s centralization. It’s bad news all the way to the bank. The design is 1 CPU cycle==1 vote, and you’ve made that equation meaningless, because now 99% of the network can disagree with you, the central authority, and still ‘lose’.
If I were an attacker, I’d take massive advantage of this. I’d start by forking the chain with a longer chain. This would cause transactions to be rolled back, while new ones get added. Then you checkpoint a point in the old chain AFTER the fork in order to get the network back on the chain, causing all the transactions between now and the time of the first fork to get rolled back. At this point, you have 2 active forks: Those who didn’t subscribe are on the forked, longer chain, and those who did are on the original, shorter chain, dividing your network power. Then I’d just do it again, and again, and again, and again, each time causing transactions to be rolled back, and at a reduced cost since you’ve divided your PoW resources with your checkpoint. I’d probably attack the original chain again, since Cryptsy would undoubtedly be on it having re-enabled FTC again after the attack, and pull it off again with less effort because some portion of your hashes are still mining the longer forked chain since they didn’t subscribe.
This is basically your worst case scenario, and you’ve made it EASIER for the attacker to pull off by introducing ACS. Every time it happens, confirmed transactions are unconfirmed, people lose money, and confidence plummets. This is without question the worst possible move to make.
Finally, PoS does not ‘slow down 51% attacks’, it makes them monetarily unfeasible and highly unproductive since the attacker would have to own 51% of the PoW AND 51% of the currency itself. It’s a GREAT solution, and if inflation is a concern, PoB is a great solution for that.
[/quote] -
[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“23422” timestamp=“1375006405”]
[quote author=wesphily link=topic=2934.msg23413#msg23413 date=1374986405]
The trick with check pointing is that you don’t have to subscribe if you don’t want to. Also, the number of people agreeing on the checkpoint will keep it decentralized.Finally, PoS does not stop 51% attack. All it does is slow it down.
[/quote]Then all it takes is one person not subscribing to disagree, creating forks in the chain. What then? Sucks to be that disenfranchised guy? What if a majority of miners form and turn off checkpointing, and then someone on high rolls back some transactions with a checkpoint? You lose > 51% of your hashpower, making your new forked shorter chain vulnerable to a 51% attack!
You’ve not solved any problems with this solution, you’ve just created more problems and a forked chain that only you and your ‘centralized list’ of mining pools deem valid. The problem IS that more than 51% of the work is controlled already, so all you’ve done is centralize the power to decide the fate of the chain AWAY from miners. If someone is deciding who those people are and maintaining that list, then the power is centralized to the owner of the list. Someone has to say, “Hey, we should checkpoint -this- chain in order to eliminate -that- fork.” and that’s centralization. Someone has to maintain the list of voters, and that’s centralization. It’s bad news all the way to the bank. The design is 1 CPU cycle==1 vote, and you’ve made that equation meaningless, because now 99% of the network can disagree with you, the central authority, and still ‘lose’.
If I were an attacker, I’d take massive advantage of this. I’d start by forking the chain with a longer chain. This would cause transactions to be rolled back, while new ones get added. Then you checkpoint a point in the old chain AFTER the fork in order to get the network back on the chain, causing all the transactions between now and the time of the first fork to get rolled back. At this point, you have 2 active forks: Those who didn’t subscribe are on the forked, longer chain, and those who did are on the original, shorter chain, dividing your network power. Then I’d just do it again, and again, and again, and again, each time causing transactions to be rolled back, and at a reduced cost since you’ve divided your PoW resources with your checkpoint. I’d probably attack the original chain again, since Cryptsy would undoubtedly be on it having re-enabled FTC again after the attack, and pull it off again with less effort because some portion of your hashes are still mining the longer forked chain since they didn’t subscribe.
This is basically your worst case scenario, and you’ve made it EASIER for the attacker to pull off by introducing ACS. Every time it happens, confirmed transactions are unconfirmed, people lose money, and confidence plummets. This is without question the worst possible move to make.
Finally, PoS does not ‘slow down 51% attacks’, it makes them monetarily unfeasible and highly unproductive since the attacker would have to own 51% of the PoW AND 51% of the currency itself. It’s a GREAT solution, and if inflation is a concern, PoB is a great solution for that.
[/quote]The attackers chain will die when they stop hashing. Their fork will only exist as long as they are running the attack, once they stop and the pools regain the majority any clients that moved to the attackers chain will revert back. With the major exchanges and pools subscribed to the same chain it will be no benefit to subscribe to a different one. If people really want to run their own chain off of Feathercoin they could, but they would not be able to play with the subscribed network. Good luck to them but they will not get in the front door of BTC-e :)
PoS breaks our inflation model. I will look into PoB.
Everyone cheer up. So many sad faces at the minute. It cannot be sunshine and lollipops all the time. I will be here working away on Feathercoin through think and thin. We have good things coming after we get Advanced Checkpointing implemented. There seems little point progressing some things until we have some protection in place. Having stayed quiet for a couple of weeks has seen the attackers move to other coins. Let’s keep our heads down for a little bit longer.
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Thank you bushstar for explaning it! :D
You should definitly prioritize to be more active on the forum, its nice to get some straight facts from time to time for people to keep focus,
and cheere the coin forward. -
[quote name=“Bushstar” post=“23448” timestamp=“1375035875”]
Having stayed quiet for a couple of weeks has seen the attackers move to other coins.
[/quote]yep. I can’t imagine who would be targeted next … [url=http://digitalcoin.co/forums/index.php/topic,4.0.html]http://digitalcoin.co/forums/index.php/topic,4.0.html[/url]
