Real time diff calculation is suicide
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We should take some care about Loyal miners:
http://forum.feathercoin.com/index.php?topic=3339.0What you think?
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I have been concerned about the effects on the market of a too efficient difficulty adjust. However swinging at a maximum of 41.4% on pretty much every adjust is a bit extreme and is more than Bitcoin or Litecoin experiences, ignoring the surge in ASICs recently.
The longer the difficulty is high the more miners we lose making us more vulnerable. We could play it safe and simply halve the difficulty adjust time to 252 block at ~19%. Loyal miners would not feel that they are spending as much time pushing through the the high difficulty. However the overall difficulty may be generally higher and ultimately the there may be no difference to the miners over the two solutions. A change like this might just help the miners psychologically.
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[quote name=“Pyxis” post=“25787” timestamp=“1376764893”]
[quote author=zerodrama link=topic=3363.msg25785#msg25785 date=1376764200]
Also two days to wait for a diff change? seriously? can we stop whining?
[/quote]+1
[/quote]And 2 weeks for it to go UP too.
Ultimately the same amount of coins will be mined as that’s what a diff adjust is for, smaller, quicker adjusts simply make it fairer to the loyal.
[quote author=Bushstar link=topic=3363.msg25810#msg25810 date=1376809527]
I have been concerned about the effects on the market of a too efficient difficulty adjust. However swinging at a maximum of 41.4% on pretty much every adjust is a bit extreme and is more than Bitcoin or Litecoin experiences, ignoring the surge in ASICs recently.The longer the difficulty is high the more miners we lose making us more vulnerable. We could play it safe and simply halve the difficulty adjust time to 252 block at ~19%. Loyal miners would not feel that they are spending as much time pushing through the the high difficulty. However the overall difficulty may be generally higher and ultimately the there may be no difference to the miners over the two solutions. A change like this might just help the miners psychologically.
[/quote]It’s all about the psychology. Keep them happy, they will stay. Upset them, they leave… simples. :)
My guess is that it will all average out in terms of hashrates, miners and coins mined etc. The difference will be that MORE will go to the people who loyally follow and contribute 1 way or another to the coin/community and LESS of the coins to the greedy miners who chase the most profitable coin and probably don’t even know who Bushstar is.
This coin was built on the community, the community was built on people looking out for each other. If we stop looking after the community, there’s very little left to differentiate us from all the other alt coins.
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[quote name=“Nutnut” post=“25811” timestamp=“1376814567”]
My guess is that it will all average out in terms of hashrates, miners and coins mined etc. The difference will be that MORE will go to the people who loyally follow and contribute 1 way or another to the coin/community and LESS of the coins to the greedy miners who chase the most profitable coin and probably don’t even know who Bushstar is.This coin was built on the community, the community was built on people looking out for each other. If we stop looking after the community, there’s very little left to differentiate us from all the other alt coins.
[/quote]Well said. That’s the point.
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[quote name=“Nutnut” post=“25811” timestamp=“1376814567”]
[quote author=Bushstar link=topic=3363.msg25810#msg25810 date=1376809527]
I have been concerned about the effects on the market of a too efficient difficulty adjust. However swinging at a maximum of 41.4% on pretty much every adjust is a bit extreme and is more than Bitcoin or Litecoin experiences, ignoring the surge in ASICs recently.The longer the difficulty is high the more miners we lose making us more vulnerable. We could play it safe and simply halve the difficulty adjust time to 252 block at ~19%. Loyal miners would not feel that they are spending as much time pushing through the the high difficulty. However the overall difficulty may be generally higher and ultimately the there may be no difference to the miners over the two solutions. A change like this might just help the miners psychologically.
[/quote]It’s all about the psychology. Keep them happy, they will stay. Upset them, they leave… simples. :)
My guess is that it will all average out in terms of hashrates, miners and coins mined etc. The difference will be that MORE will go to the people who loyally follow and contribute 1 way or another to the coin/community and LESS of the coins to the greedy miners who chase the most profitable coin and probably don’t even know who Bushstar is.
This coin was built on the community, the community was built on people looking out for each other. If we stop looking after the community, there’s very little left to differentiate us from all the other alt coins.
[/quote]Without understanding too much about details of the cryptocoin technology I believe that this solution ~19%/252 could be better at the moment. Psychological feeling of miners is really important factor and in this way it could be possible to get more people to stay over high difficulty periods. This also give psychological reward to loyal miners, when profitability difference between high and low difficulty wouldn’t be so much.
What I hope not to see is too fast difficulty adjustment, that could take ftc back to same issue we had before block 33000… Rather I would suffer this 2 days peaks what ftc is facing now. No matter what kind of adjustment system there is, there will always be people jumping to find most profitable coin.
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[quote name=“zerodrama” post=“25785” timestamp=“1376764200”]
I’m going to define a quantity - Pointfulness, pfn.PFN = usefulness * usability
The more hashrate you have, the usefulness of your hardware goes up. You can make more coins.
The more difficulty you have, the usability of your hardware goes down. You have less time to get more hardware and it takes longer to get it. At some point these two time values diverge too much, and you guessed it, the good ole rubber band breaks.
If there is no time to sell ftc or purchase items with ftc, then the hardware you just bought last week, which took 7 days to arrive, will get you half the coins you were getting before you had it.
[/quote]This makes no sense. The usability of the hardware doesnt go down with higher diff. The coins pr day goes down, which will be compensated by the value of the coin given the bigger “rarity” of it…
[quote]
But real time diff calc is the other extreme of no diff 40% variation limit and just as bad or even worse. It represents panicky and quick fix thinking.No one will bother hopping onto a coin which drops output within minutes.
[/quote]Who has said anything about real diff calculation??? point me to that statement and i will argue against it.
We need to get the diff adjustment lower then 40% and the retarget time down by half to not have to have those “high/low” diff miners attacking the coin[quote]
Also two days to wait for a diff change? seriously? can we stop whining? Bitcoiners wait 2 weeks or so.
[/quote]
BITCOIN DO NOT HAVE THE BUNGY ISSUE WE´RE EXPERIENCING.
Have you been in a cave? two days for diff change wait isnt a problem, the problem is that after a couple of hours theres two days AGAIN.
Have you spoken to any of the “pro miners”? I have and its a struggle to keep them on board given todays situation.[quote]
The real problem here is: People don’t know what they want.
[/quote]
Thats a bold statement, i though this was a community coin, apperantly you know whats best for everyone?Its a long time since ive been this upset by a thread…Here i am mining away 24/7 both in high diff and low diff, trying to find a solution on the forum, and suddenly im a whiner and i dont know what i want?
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[quote name=“svennand” post=“25826” timestamp=“1376836646”]
[quote author=zerodrama link=topic=3363.msg25785#msg25785 date=1376764200]
I’m going to define a quantity - Pointfulness, pfn.PFN = usefulness * usability
The more hashrate you have, the usefulness of your hardware goes up. You can make more coins.
The more difficulty you have, the usability of your hardware goes down. You have less time to get more hardware and it takes longer to get it. At some point these two time values diverge too much, and you guessed it, the good ole rubber band breaks.
If there is no time to sell ftc or purchase items with ftc, then the hardware you just bought last week, which took 7 days to arrive, will get you half the coins you were getting before you had it.
[/quote]This makes no sense. The usability of the hardware doesnt go down with higher diff. The coins pr day goes down, which will be compensated by the value of the coin given the bigger “rarity” of it…
[quote]
But real time diff calc is the other extreme of no diff 40% variation limit and just as bad or even worse. It represents panicky and quick fix thinking.No one will bother hopping onto a coin which drops output within minutes.
[/quote]Who has said anything about real diff calculation??? point me to that statement and i will argue against it.
We need to get the diff adjustment lower then 40% and the retarget time down by half to not have to have those “high/low” diff miners attacking the coin[quote]
Also two days to wait for a diff change? seriously? can we stop whining? Bitcoiners wait 2 weeks or so.
[/quote]
BITCOIN DO NOT HAVE THE BUNGY ISSUE WE´RE EXPERIENCING.
Have you been in a cave? two days for diff change wait isnt a problem, the problem is that after a couple of hours theres two days AGAIN.
Have you spoken to any of the “pro miners”? I have and its a struggle to keep them on board given todays situation.[quote]
The real problem here is: People don’t know what they want.
[/quote]
Thats a bold statement, i though this was a community coin, apperantly you know whats best for everyone?Its a long time since ive been this upset by a thread…Here i am mining away 24/7 both in high diff and low diff, trying to find a solution on the forum, and suddenly im a whiner and i dont know what i want?
[/quote]Well said!
Zero, this is not the first time you’ve shown your disdain to miners, you showed it when i first joined and nearly made me leave again. You boast that you are the troll of trolls like a teenager wearing an ASBO badge of honour… Stop it! It’s not productive and your arrogance only serves to annoy more people and drive more people away.
Quit winding people up and actually develop/deploy one of your “ideas” or your “solutions”.
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[quote name=“svennand” post=“25826” timestamp=“1376836646”]
This makes no sense. The usability of the hardware doesnt go down with higher diff. The coins pr day goes down, which will be compensated by the value of the coin given the bigger “rarity” of it…
[/quote]The value isn’t going up. We’ve got swings from 3 Ghs to 12 Ghs, Cruisers don’t buy coins. They only sell to long holders.
The value jumped once recently. The difficulty is up (on average) and price is not going up. Price will not go up without real 9-5 burger and a soda transactions.[quote]
Who has said anything about real diff calculation??? point me to that statement and i will argue against it.
We need to get the diff adjustment lower then 40% and the retarget time down by half to not have to have those “high/low” diff miners attacking the coin
[/quote]I see it on a few threads.
[quote]
BITCOIN DO NOT HAVE THE BUNGY ISSUE WE´RE EXPERIENCING.
Have you been in a cave? two days for diff change wait isnt a problem, the problem is that after a couple of hours theres two days AGAIN.
Have you spoken to any of the “pro miners”? I have and its a struggle to keep them on board given todays situation.
[/quote]Maybe people need to pick projects that will bring the prices up so they might want to mine. We can’t keep avoiding reality. The coin has to be used to be valuable. Miners are getting stuck in difficulty traps because we’re not stepping up to the plate.
Here’s an idea: Host wordpress blogs, charge FTC. I already know what I want to build.[quote]
Thats a bold statement, i though this was a community coin, apperantly you know whats best for everyone?
[/quote]I’m talking about reality. Our builder to cruiser ratio needs to keep up with the real world. We have a market, but not enough variety or household items to set it on fire.
[quote]
Its a long time since ive been this upset by a thread…Here i am mining away 24/7 both in high diff and low diff, trying to find a solution on the forum, and suddenly im a whiner and i dont know what i want?
[/quote]The real time difficulty update suggestion keeps coming up. I don’t have a problem with miners. It’s the magical hand of the cruisers attitude.
[quote author=Nutnut link=topic=3363.msg25828#msg25828 date=1376837698]
Well said!Zero, this is not the first time you’ve shown your disdain to miners, you showed it when i first joined and nearly made me leave again. You boast that you are the troll of trolls like a teenager wearing an ASBO badge of honour… Stop it! It’s not productive and your arrogance only serves to annoy more people and drive more people away.
Quit winding people up and actually develop/deploy one of your “ideas” or your “solutions”.
[/quote]Miners came in like biker gangs lording it over us when we knew community was the true wealth builder. I said what needed to be said. If people feel I’m a bit loud, sorry but I’m motivated by what I believe works and I’m going to promote what I know. I do not believe we can cruise through this. I believe we have to set the example because a lot of people outside this community are not building, they’re just trying to stay out of the rain of mistakes fiatocrats are making (intentionally).
Cruising does not work. I’m have no problem with miners who don’t act like this is some kind of virtual high frequency trading opportunity. I even suggested that maybe pools could deviate from the coin definition. Maybe people are hopping pools because we’re not promoting the value of communities as much as it needs to be.
It’s not the currency that needs to be fixed. It’s the idea of waiting for someone else to do something.
I’ll admit I overshot on the designs I posted. Not making the same mistake.
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[quote name=“zerodrama” post=“25831” timestamp=“1376841257”]
[quote author=svennand link=topic=3363.msg25826#msg25826 date=1376836646]
This makes no sense. The usability of the hardware doesnt go down with higher diff. The coins pr day goes down, which will be compensated by the value of the coin given the bigger “rarity” of it…
[/quote]The value isn’t going up. We’ve got swings from 3 Ghs to 12 Ghs, Cruisers don’t buy coins. They only sell to long holders.
The value jumped once recently. The difficulty is up (on average) and price is not going up. Price will not go up without real 9-5 burger and a soda transactions.
[/quote]How do you know that cruisers dont buy coins? thats a bold statement. May it be that they believe in ftc, but are able to grap average 1000ftc pr day as compared to 4-500 with pure ftc mining?
[quote][quote]
Who has said anything about real diff calculation??? point me to that statement and i will argue against it.
We need to get the diff adjustment lower then 40% and the retarget time down by half to not have to have those “high/low” diff miners attacking the coin
[/quote]I see it on a few threads.
[/quote]Well then it should be discussed why that is not a good idea, and not just call em whiners.
[quote][quote]
BITCOIN DO NOT HAVE THE BUNGY ISSUE WE´RE EXPERIENCING.
Have you been in a cave? two days for diff change wait isnt a problem, the problem is that after a couple of hours theres two days AGAIN.
Have you spoken to any of the “pro miners”? I have and its a struggle to keep them on board given todays situation.
[/quote]Maybe people need to pick projects that will bring the prices up so they might want to mine. We can’t keep avoiding reality. The coin has to be used to be valuable. Miners are getting stuck in difficulty traps because we’re not stepping up to the plate.
Here’s an idea: Host wordpress blogs, charge FTC. I already know what I want to build.
[/quote]I was hoping for a steady ftc diff increase given how awesome the comunity has been so far getting ftc out there.
Theres people working on this coin every day, the PR department and so on are stepping up to the plate 24/7 in my opinion.
But that doesnt change average troughput of coins pr day given investment/leccy bill to get it.
As long as the diff stays the way it is i do not think we will see an increase in value at exchange (unless its a pump/dump wave)[quote][quote]
Thats a bold statement, i though this was a community coin, apperantly you know whats best for everyone?
[/quote]I’m talking about reality. Our builder to cruiser ratio needs to keep up with the real world. We have a market, but not enough variety or household items to set it on fire.
[/quote]I agree that we can never rest until it is a normal procedure to implement ftc payment when someone is starting their business.
But calling miners (which is the foundation for a coin to work) whiners and so on when they adress a problem they feel needs attention.thats just wrong[quote][quote]
Its a long time since ive been this upset by a thread…Here i am mining away 24/7 both in high diff and low diff, trying to find a solution on the forum, and suddenly im a whiner and i dont know what i want?
[/quote]The real time difficulty update suggestion keeps coming up. I don’t have a problem with miners. It’s the magical hand of the cruisers attitude.
[/quote]Well maybe its because they are just grasping for solution, an post from bushstar regarding his thoughs on the matter, and what could work or not work
would certainly calm the masses. As long as a solution isnt on the table, brainstorming about 10%20%30%, each 254,100,1 block and so on wiiiiiiill come up…
Its an important aspect of a coin that supposed to be community driven,
It should be discussed in every aspect. -
This thread is getting personal, remember the forum has rules.
http://forum.feathercoin.com/index.php?topic=466.0 -
[quote name=“Pyxis” post=“25850” timestamp=“1376867414”]
This thread is getting personal, remember the forum has rules.
http://forum.feathercoin.com/index.php?topic=466.0
[/quote]It’s a heated debate with valid arguments and we shouldn’t just lock threads without consulting the other mods first.
Chaps, keep it on topic…
I find it interesting to see the differing points of view out there.
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[quote name=“Pyxis” post=“25850” timestamp=“1376867414”]
This thread is getting personal, remember the forum has rules.
http://forum.feathercoin.com/index.php?topic=466.0
[/quote]part from asking about beeing in cave i cant see much attack here.
Its a heated discussion, nothing more. -
I hear what you are saying about the cruisers but I can’t help but feel that the miners DO bring something to the party - hash power. It could of course be argued that if the cruising miners didn’t come here the the diff would be lower and and the same number of coins would flow but then we are more susceptible to a 51%.
I think all miners are valuable whether they’re in it for profit or not, cruising or not. Our goal should be to keep them here. To do that we need to increase the stability of the block times (forget about profitability for a moment) so that transactions flow smoother and they have stability in the number of coins per day. Svennand and I are starting a pps pool together (that could go very badly :-\ ) with 4000ftc in the “float” to try to smooth out the peaks and troughs. If we loose the 4000 then it will close, if not it stays open till we do. That way miners know what they’re getting. ACP and quicker adjusts make that a much less nerve wracking proposal though… *Cough* Bushstar… ;)
I’m interested to hear exactly what you think pools could do to help. If its realistic, I’m game.
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Plus - My idea is being totally misrepresented, it is designed to achieve the 100, 1000 and 10,000 day block targets gradually.
Because it is averaged any change in one time domain only has 3rd of the effect and the coin gradually achieves it long and short term aims.
I have also done all the analysis work to show why an average of the average of 3 would be an optimal solution as opposed to 1 or 4, and that the numbers chosen only have to be an order of magnitude to the problem frequencies to be damped.
It was very interesting to hear Bitcoin has the same bounce problem.
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I do think bitcoin does have the same bounce problem - [url=http://bitcoindifficulty.com/]http://bitcoindifficulty.com/[/url]
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I haven’t made a new post of the Hourly Blockchain analysis, as it applies here I’m reposting.
I selected an interesting Feathercoin event to do a more in depth Block production short term analysis.
On Saturday 8th June 2013 the daily charts showed a big spike in Block production when the difficulty decreased after being high for a long period.
This chart zooms into the variation per Hour. The chart shows the extent of the increase in Hash rate at the peak 20:00 Saturday. The length of the initial peak and the time before the real network was allowed back.
I’ve done the chart without any pre-conceived ideas, and will be interested to look up what the forum said was happening at the time.
I haven’t looked in detail but I suspect the real attack happened just before the end, and they managed to add their own blockchain by back dating the blocks. I seem to remember at the time I had my real coins, then they were orphaned and disappeared from my wallet.
However, I think it could be a good chart to show live on the forum, I think the chart shows community action helped us deflect a problem.
I’ve added another Hourly chart for 18th July 2013 a recent large peak in Feathercoin Block chain over production.
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