Diff trap... Again.
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Nutnut, we’re duscussing possible solutions [url=http://forum.feathercoin.com/index.php?topic=1478.msg24318#msg24318]here[/url]. I suggest to retarget every 12 blocks (~30 minutes) while keeping our current 21 hour retarget window (504 blocks * 2.5 minute). It doesn’t break anything while delivering necessary difficulty smoothing. No more large difficulty swings. Loyal miners will like it, coin hoppers will not. We can run simulations on the testnet if Peter approves this change for the next hard fork.
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7… This is just… Here we go again >:(
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[quote name=“Simkill” post=“25460” timestamp=“1376409048”]
Makes me want to move to worldcoin for a bit :-(
[/quote]You should, I need more company with nut2 WDC pool!
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[quote name=“Simkill” post=“25460” timestamp=“1376409048”]
Makes me want to move to worldcoin for a bit :-(
[/quote]I feel ya!
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[quote name=“RIPPEDDRAGON” post=“25461” timestamp=“1376409776”]
[quote author=Simkill link=topic=3327.msg25460#msg25460 date=1376409048]
Makes me want to move to worldcoin for a bit :-(
[/quote]You should, I need more company with nut2 WDC pool!
[/quote]Shameless plug but you could always add
[code][URL=http://www.nut2pools.com/][IMG]http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7705/kzt8.png[/img][/URL][/code]
to your forum profiles. ;)
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[quote name=“Nutnut” post=“25466” timestamp=“1376410183”]
[quote author=RIPPEDDRAGON link=topic=3327.msg25461#msg25461 date=1376409776]
[quote author=Simkill link=topic=3327.msg25460#msg25460 date=1376409048]
Makes me want to move to worldcoin for a bit :-(
[/quote]You should, I need more company with nut2 WDC pool!
[/quote]Shameless plug but you could always add
[code][URL=http://www.nut2pools.com/][IMG]http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7705/kzt8.png[/img][/URL][/code]
to your forum profiles. ;)
[/quote]Noted. :)
I will swing my 2.2MH from FC pool over to yours when I finish work today.
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With the pump and dumps encouraged for ftc I end up still hashing away holding the bag. sometimes with the big surge my pool finds fewer blocks so less return. Of course with LTC thinning out and people coming from btc land we’re going to see more of it. i don’t think modifying the coin again for better fluctuation is a good thing. Eyes are on us because the pxc and wdc inflationary modifications.
i think I’m gonna try mining some other coin for a week to see the results on the trade over. :(
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[quote name=“MrFeathers” post=“25532” timestamp=“1376440977”]
[quote author=jeremiel link=topic=3327.msg25511#msg25511 date=1376420886]
With the pump and dumps encouraged for ftc I end up still hashing away holding the bag. sometimes with the big surge my pool finds fewer blocks so less return. Of course with LTC thinning out and people coming from btc land we’re going to see more of it. i don’t think modifying the coin again for better fluctuation is a good thing. Eyes are on us because the pxc and wdc inflationary modifications.i think I’m gonna try mining some other coin for a week to see the results on the trade over. :(
[/quote]I dont think the new WDC patch is inflationary. WDC doubled both generation time and reward so same amount of coins.
[/quote]It is, although not detrimentally so: They actually reduced the number of coins that will be minted over the years, but made it so coins will always be minted, which increases the total number over the long(er) term. Overall the changes were positive ones and I’m happy with the way it’s being handled.
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In times like these everyone not using coinchoose, coinwarz, etc. to mine the most profitable coin, the “coin of the hour” would be stupid.
Bad for Feathercoin. And bad for all other non-Junk Coins in general.
Because loyalty can not be implemented in the algorithm as such, all we can do is to create other incentives for miners to mine FTC: Create and support a prolonged uptrend in the exchange rate.
People will get tired jumping from one coin to the next. Effectively loosing money because the pools are PPLNS, because they can’t sell the junk coins fast enough, etc.
Stability will prevail. And stability is what we, the FTC community, have to provide.
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Hello!
Im a newbie here so feel free to ignore me, but cant difficulty swings be minimized with more frequent small % based adjusts?
From what ive seen most ppl change coins based on being the most profitable, by making the adjusts small there should not be much immediate variance between “everyone mining” and “just regulars”, even if regulars where just half of the miners…
I mean, the instant FTC becomes the top coin everyone will come mine it, next cycle will adjust just 5%, enough to lower it in the ranking to 2nd or 3rd place, and then miners will leave, etc.
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[quote name=“juanitierno” post=“25682” timestamp=“1376591223”]
Hello!Im a newbie here so feel free to ignore me, but cant difficulty swings be minimized with more frequent small % based adjusts?
[/quote]It’s being discussed. Something can be improved definitely.
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[quote name=“ghostlander” post=“25694” timestamp=“1376610754”]
[quote author=juanitierno link=topic=3327.msg25682#msg25682 date=1376591223]
Hello!Im a newbie here so feel free to ignore me, but cant difficulty swings be minimized with more frequent small % based adjusts?
[/quote]It’s being discussed. Something can be improved definitely.
[/quote]This will not solve our problem. As long as coinchoose, coinwarz & others exit and are heavily used, users will always mine the most profitable coin. No matter if difficulty is adjusted every 500, 50 or 5 blocks.
As a short term solution one alt coin might implement shorter difficulty adjustment times - and then all the other scrypt coins might follow one by one, because it seems to be the holy grail. But in the end this only leads to more unification: Different coins become more and more the same (feature like).
Lets Feathercoin again stand out. Lets make it [b]the [/b]scrypt coin. Lets make it [b]the [/b]Alt coin.
I think Bushstars difficulty adjustment algorithm has proven to work. Even in rough times (high difficulty, low network) we always manage to keep the network over 1500 MH/s. That shows that there’s some loyalty already.
We have to improve that loyalty. But no piece of software, no algorithm can do that for us.
We have to actively promote the coin. Ensure a stable exchange rate, or even [i]generate[/i] a persistent uptrend.
In doing this we get the attention of others: “Wow, FTC is not just another 4.5 MH/s network coin with difficulty in the 0.x region (getting lower every day to attract miners)”.
[b]Feathercoin is here to stay![/b]
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[quote name=“Radacoin” post=“25705” timestamp=“1376634330”]
[quote author=ghostlander link=topic=3327.msg25694#msg25694 date=1376610754]
[quote author=juanitierno link=topic=3327.msg25682#msg25682 date=1376591223]
Hello!Im a newbie here so feel free to ignore me, but cant difficulty swings be minimized with more frequent small % based adjusts?
[/quote]It’s being discussed. Something can be improved definitely.
[/quote]This will not solve our problem. As long as coinchoose, coinwarz & others exit and are heavily used, users will always mine the most profitable coin. No matter if difficulty is adjusted every 500, 50 or 5 blocks.
As a short term solution one alt coin might implement shorter difficulty adjustment times - and then all the other scrypt coins might follow one by one, because it seems to be the holy grail. But in the end this only leads to more unification: Different coins become more and more the same (feature like).
Lets Feathercoin again stand out. Lets make it [b]the [/b]scrypt coin. Lets make it [b]the [/b]Alt coin.
I think Bushstars difficulty adjustment algorithm has proven to work. Even in rough times (high difficulty, low network) we always manage to keep the network over 1500 MH/s. That shows that there’s some loyalty already.
We have to improve that loyalty. But no piece of software, no algorithm can do that for us.
We have to actively promote the coin. Ensure a stable exchange rate, or even [i]generate[/i] a persistent uptrend.
In doing this we get the attention of others: “Wow, FTC is not just another 4.5 MH/s network coin with difficulty in the 0.x region (getting lower every day to attract miners)”.
[b]Feathercoin is here to stay![/b]
[/quote]Sorry radacoin, I disagree.
Creating small more frequent changes would stop us going from spot one to spot 10+ on coinchoose. Therefor the mad influx followed by exodus would be reduced and thy loyal following would continue.
Example…
Right now, we are 14th on coinchoose and we have 4ghs approx. weve been stuck here for a long while mining only a handful of coins. the confirms are slow and were missing our blocktimes. once the diff drops in 2 hours, we’ll be much higher (say 3rd for sake of argument) and all the non loyal miners will jump on. Our hashrate will shoot up to 10+ghs and in 8 hours we’ll be back at a high diff and 14th on coinchoose again. All the un loyal miners sod off and muggins here is left to mine it back down. Wash, rinse, repeat.
The only time we occasionally beat it is if we have a pump at the same time. Then it gets worse as the diff may go up twice.
I think it’s safe to say I’m one of the most loyal miners here. I’ve been here since the big trap in may that caused a fork, and by and large it was my thread that dragged a few other big hashers over. And our rigs that allowed us to get to the hard fork block.
Even I am now getting fed up of mining the least profitable coin so others can drop by for a quick win and I’m considering taking on the attitude of if you can’t beat em, join em.
Smaller more frequent changes mean would only fluctuate by a couple of positions on coinchoose rather than 10 or 15 and therefor encourage more miners to stick with us.
MOST MINERS ARE NOT LOYAL. They want to make money, as do most people involved in crypto.
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[quote name=“Nutnut” post=“25706” timestamp=“1376640837”]
Creating small more frequent changes would stop us going from spot one to spot 10+ on coinchoose.
[/quote]Bitcoin network has 400.000 GH/s.
Terracoin, even when profitability is 3x that of Bitcoin on coinchoose & friends, never goes over 3.000 GH/s.
How come? If coinchoose is the be-all and end-all?We have the become the Bitcoin in the Scrypt world. Otherwise we are only tossed about by the waves of difficulty. Like all the other alt coins.
Tweaking the difficulty adjustment algorithm does not change this.
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[quote name=“Nutnut” post=“25706” timestamp=“1376640837”]
[quote author=Radacoin link=topic=3327.msg25705#msg25705 date=1376634330]
[quote author=ghostlander link=topic=3327.msg25694#msg25694 date=1376610754]
[quote author=juanitierno link=topic=3327.msg25682#msg25682 date=1376591223]
Hello!Im a newbie here so feel free to ignore me, but cant difficulty swings be minimized with more frequent small % based adjusts?
[/quote]It’s being discussed. Something can be improved definitely.
[/quote]This will not solve our problem. As long as coinchoose, coinwarz & others exit and are heavily used, users will always mine the most profitable coin. No matter if difficulty is adjusted every 500, 50 or 5 blocks.
As a short term solution one alt coin might implement shorter difficulty adjustment times - and then all the other scrypt coins might follow one by one, because it seems to be the holy grail. But in the end this only leads to more unification: Different coins become more and more the same (feature like).
Lets Feathercoin again stand out. Lets make it [b]the [/b]scrypt coin. Lets make it [b]the [/b]Alt coin.
I think Bushstars difficulty adjustment algorithm has proven to work. Even in rough times (high difficulty, low network) we always manage to keep the network over 1500 MH/s. That shows that there’s some loyalty already.
We have to improve that loyalty. But no piece of software, no algorithm can do that for us.
We have to actively promote the coin. Ensure a stable exchange rate, or even [i]generate[/i] a persistent uptrend.
In doing this we get the attention of others: “Wow, FTC is not just another 4.5 MH/s network coin with difficulty in the 0.x region (getting lower every day to attract miners)”.
[b]Feathercoin is here to stay![/b]
[/quote]Sorry radacoin, I disagree.
Creating small more frequent changes would stop us going from spot one to spot 10+ on coinchoose. Therefor the mad influx followed by exodus would be reduced and thy loyal following would continue.
Example…
Right now, we are 14th on coinchoose and we have 4ghs approx. weve been stuck here for a long while mining only a handful of coins. the confirms are slow and were missing our blocktimes. once the diff drops in 2 hours, we’ll be much higher (say 3rd for sake of argument) and all the non loyal miners will jump on. Our hashrate will shoot up to 10+ghs and in 8 hours we’ll be back at a high diff and 14th on coinchoose again. All the un loyal miners sod off and muggins here is left to mine it back down. Wash, rinse, repeat.
The only time we occasionally beat it is if we have a pump at the same time. Then it gets worse as the diff may go up twice.
I think it’s safe to say I’m one of the most loyal miners here. I’ve been here since the big trap in may that caused a fork, and by and large it was my thread that dragged a few other big hashers over. And our rigs that allowed us to get to the hard fork block.
Even I am now getting fed up of mining the least profitable coin so others can drop by for a quick win and I’m considering taking on the attitude of if you can’t beat em, join em.
Smaller more frequent changes mean would only fluctuate by a couple of positions on coinchoose rather than 10 or 15 and therefor encourage more miners to stick with us.
MOST MINERS ARE NOT LOYAL. They want to make money, as do most people involved in crypto.
[/quote]Hey man,
I’d like to try and understand this a bit better. What’s has marginal difference in profit been over the last few day between FTC and the most profitable coin? What’s your Opportunity cost?
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[quote name=“Radacoin” post=“25705” timestamp=“1376634330”]
[quote author=ghostlander link=topic=3327.msg25694#msg25694 date=1376610754]
[quote author=juanitierno link=topic=3327.msg25682#msg25682 date=1376591223]
Hello!Im a newbie here so feel free to ignore me, but cant difficulty swings be minimized with more frequent small % based adjusts?
[/quote]It’s being discussed. Something can be improved definitely.
[/quote]This will not solve our problem. As long as coinchoose, coinwarz & others exit and are heavily used, users will always mine the most profitable coin. No matter if difficulty is adjusted every 500, 50 or 5 blocks.
[/quote]It matters actually. 1.41 difficulty limiter is good at dealing with dire consequences of very high hash rate variances including attacks. However, it doesn’t really solve the problem. Our network hash rate varies between 2GH/s and 10GH/s or so currently. It means we have about 2GH/s of loyal miners and 8GH/s of coin hoppers. When the difficulty is high, loyal miners support the network and receive inferior rewards. When it’s low, coin hoppers drive in and reap most of superior rewards. Loyal miners get upset and some of them may even consider to become coin hoppers. In addition, our actual block target is far from default 2.5 minutes: it’s either much faster or much slower which hurts transaction processing. That’s not good and has to be changed.
If the difficulty is adjusted often such as every 30 minutes, it solves the problem of coin hoppers. For example, we may experience currently our difficulty to jump from 170 to 240 and back to 170. If we retarget every 30 minutes, the difficulty may hit about 200 only and recover in a matter of hours. Coin hoppers will realise soon that it’s pointless to mine FTC for a few hours as most pools are PPLNS. Some of them may become full time miners, some will go elsewhere. No more problem.
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[quote name=“chrisj” post=“25708” timestamp=“1376644700”]
[quote author=Nutnut link=topic=3327.msg25706#msg25706 date=1376640837]
[quote author=Radacoin link=topic=3327.msg25705#msg25705 date=1376634330]
[quote author=ghostlander link=topic=3327.msg25694#msg25694 date=1376610754]
[quote author=juanitierno link=topic=3327.msg25682#msg25682 date=1376591223]
Hello!Im a newbie here so feel free to ignore me, but cant difficulty swings be minimized with more frequent small % based adjusts?
[/quote]It’s being discussed. Something can be improved definitely.
[/quote]This will not solve our problem. As long as coinchoose, coinwarz & others exit and are heavily used, users will always mine the most profitable coin. No matter if difficulty is adjusted every 500, 50 or 5 blocks.
As a short term solution one alt coin might implement shorter difficulty adjustment times - and then all the other scrypt coins might follow one by one, because it seems to be the holy grail. But in the end this only leads to more unification: Different coins become more and more the same (feature like).
Lets Feathercoin again stand out. Lets make it [b]the [/b]scrypt coin. Lets make it [b]the [/b]Alt coin.
I think Bushstars difficulty adjustment algorithm has proven to work. Even in rough times (high difficulty, low network) we always manage to keep the network over 1500 MH/s. That shows that there’s some loyalty already.
We have to improve that loyalty. But no piece of software, no algorithm can do that for us.
We have to actively promote the coin. Ensure a stable exchange rate, or even [i]generate[/i] a persistent uptrend.
In doing this we get the attention of others: “Wow, FTC is not just another 4.5 MH/s network coin with difficulty in the 0.x region (getting lower every day to attract miners)”.
[b]Feathercoin is here to stay![/b]
[/quote]Sorry radacoin, I disagree.
Creating small more frequent changes would stop us going from spot one to spot 10+ on coinchoose. Therefor the mad influx followed by exodus would be reduced and thy loyal following would continue.
Example…
Right now, we are 14th on coinchoose and we have 4ghs approx. weve been stuck here for a long while mining only a handful of coins. the confirms are slow and were missing our blocktimes. once the diff drops in 2 hours, we’ll be much higher (say 3rd for sake of argument) and all the non loyal miners will jump on. Our hashrate will shoot up to 10+ghs and in 8 hours we’ll be back at a high diff and 14th on coinchoose again. All the un loyal miners sod off and muggins here is left to mine it back down. Wash, rinse, repeat.
The only time we occasionally beat it is if we have a pump at the same time. Then it gets worse as the diff may go up twice.
I think it’s safe to say I’m one of the most loyal miners here. I’ve been here since the big trap in may that caused a fork, and by and large it was my thread that dragged a few other big hashers over. And our rigs that allowed us to get to the hard fork block.
Even I am now getting fed up of mining the least profitable coin so others can drop by for a quick win and I’m considering taking on the attitude of if you can’t beat em, join em.
Smaller more frequent changes mean would only fluctuate by a couple of positions on coinchoose rather than 10 or 15 and therefor encourage more miners to stick with us.
MOST MINERS ARE NOT LOYAL. They want to make money, as do most people involved in crypto.
[/quote]Hey man,
I’d like to try and understand this a bit better. What’s has marginal difference in profit been over the last few day between FTC and the most profitable coin? What’s your Opportunity cost?
[/quote]
It’s not about the most profitable coin, more about the coins per day.
At diff 144 (which is when they all flock back) i get 120ftc per day more than when the diff spikes like now. When the diff hit 241 and mined through it i was down 180 coins per day. The hashrate dropped massively and we were stuck there for flippin ages and we loyal followers have to mine it off. i personally lost about 400ftc in those couple of days.
The more frequent and smaller diff changes simply stops the HUGE swings in difficulty and WILL encourage miners to stick around. If the diff only moves a few points each time it doesn’t sting so much.
In short It WILL create a more stable hashrate, therefor a more stable fleet of miners, therefor a following of die hard feathercoiners and therefor speedy and reliable blocks/confirms and therefor platform to build the empire upon. It’s all useless if no-one can move the coin due to the long transaction time. Miners make that happen and if they get fed up, it all goes to brown stuff.
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[quote name=“Radacoin” post=“25678” timestamp=“1376590113”]
In times like these everyone not using coinchoose, coinwarz, etc. to mine the most profitable coin, the “coin of the hour” would be stupid.Bad for Feathercoin. And bad for all other non-Junk Coins in general.
Because loyalty can not be implemented in the algorithm as such, all we can do is to create other incentives for miners to mine FTC: Create and support a prolonged uptrend in the exchange rate.
People will get tired jumping from one coin to the next. Effectively loosing money because the pools are PPLNS, because they can’t sell the junk coins fast enough, etc.
Stability will prevail. And stability is what we, the FTC community, have to provide.
[/quote]I am reading through all these comments very carefully and wanted to say I really like this comment about loyalty. I will stick a grand in to mining FTC, I don’t care if it loses money because I believe in the project long term.
Will continue reading.
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[quote name=“Radacoin” post=“25705” timestamp=“1376634330”]
We have to improve that loyalty. But no piece of software, no algorithm can do that for us.
[/quote]RIGHT. We can’t keep expecting technology to fix all our problems.
I am listening to [b]Radacoin[/b]. Of course technology can help to automate away some of the more repetitive tasks and indeed it can help us build the Handicap Principle (hard rules that put in place ahead of time because we know ourselves too well) But if we really want to move out the status quo we are also going to need a social intelligence, we are going to need to inspire people.
I am doing as much as I can and am always interested to hear from people either publicly on here or by PM. I am also ChrisJ on the trollbox.
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[quote name=“Nutnut” post=“25706” timestamp=“1376640837”]
Even I am now getting fed up of mining the least profitable coin so others can drop by for a quick win and I’m considering taking on the attitude of if you can’t beat em, join em.Smaller more frequent changes mean would only fluctuate by a couple of positions on coinchoose rather than 10 or 15 and therefor encourage more miners to stick with us.
MOST MINERS ARE NOT LOYAL. They want to make money, as do most people involved in crypto.
[/quote]Personally I am very grateful for your loyal support in mining during low difficulty because it helped me to work on the SMS Address rollout and the Homeless project I am working on.
Please don’t “join 'em” Nutnut, don’t go to the darkside.
Is there anything you need asside from more stability in the coins that we might be able to help you with?
For example I can join your pool. I can buy you a pint in Oxford on the 7th with some FTC :)
Anything else?
