Just for fun - Under Attack
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[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“22830” timestamp=“1374613918”]
[quote author=svennand link=topic=2941.msg22811#msg22811 date=1374606488]
[quote author=Justabitoftime link=topic=2941.msg22797#msg22797 date=1374605361]
[quote author=MrFeathers link=topic=2941.msg22796#msg22796 date=1374605020]
Now for the important question: Which one of those is justabit? :P
[/quote]If there a character being grilled, that would be me. :)
[/quote]noncense! Great job today, even tough everything didnt go as planed. The plan was really great! looking forward to the new features comming along :D
[/quote]I’m afraid I have to respectfully disagree. The plan was not great, in fact it sucked. A piece of untested software was announced and a deadline given before the software could be tested and finalized. About a million things could have been done differently.
It is a major mistake to announce an untested product to the community at large. What should have happened is there should have been a trial integration of the software with a vendor in order to demonstrate feasibility which was made known privately to core members for testing, and once everything had been proven and demonstrated reliable, the audience should have been expanded to a few more integration and a more public beta. Finally once the system was ready for mass adoption, the countdown to the official release INCLUDING the participating vendors should have been announced, and the release itself should have been rehearsed by all the parties responsible.
Obviously none of this happened. In fact as far as I can tell the exact opposite happened: A countdown was started and press releases were announced long before the software was in a place to be tested by the public at large, let alone have mass adoption. A lot of the time the countdown didn’t work for people, leading them to question our ability to provide working software solutions. Then a delay occured, and finally once the delay was over, the countdown sat at 0 for a while. Then a page with 2 young kids sheepishly asking for 3 more days showed up briefly, until it was replaced with a teaser splash screen, which is STILL there this afternoon, along with a note from someone I’ve not heard from before named iamatrix. I don’t see him posting in here.
It was a bad plan, and on TOP of that it was poorly executed. As a result prices are tanking, and we’re now the laughing stock of the community. You know what would have been a better plan is doing NOTHING AT ALL and focusing on the 51% attacks by adding desperately needed features like PoS or PoB blocks to the blockchain.
I’m embarrassed, I’m angry, I feel lied to, I’m hemorrhaging money, the entire organization has been dyed in shame and unprofessionalism, and I’m NOT ALONE either. We don’t need cheerleaders to go “Ra ra! Great job!” when someone drops the god damned ball, we need owners who take personal responsibility for their commitments, or at the very least, have the courtesy to buy me dinner first… I’m used to getting wined and dined before being lied to and royally.
What happened here is someone bit off more than they can chew and lost focus on what’s important: The currency, and the community that makes it viable.
But the rendering is cool. Perhaps you should add a gigantic pillar of community hellfire around Justabit though…
[/quote]I see some of your development approaches as being usefull for future development/implementations.
Also the timer countdown created some volatile discussions in the trollbox for sure.But “we” are a community in the making, if we cant accept and learn from our mistakes then this will not get that far.
As to the deadline not beeing meet my impression is that some devs just got to excited with what was possible and didnt entirely comprehend the amount of work that was laying before them.I do however not think we should shoot the messenger, OR roll the dev team in tar and feather (hihi get it ;D).
As far as the price goes i dont se any difference from today and yesterday, same old balancing between 0.00088-0.0009 on btc-e, so in my eyes theres not much damage done in that department, trollbox will allways be trollbox…If you have lost the faith in the coin/community that represent it, by all means theres many other coins to chose among out there.
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[quote]A lot of the time the countdown didn’t work for people, leading them to question our ability to provide working software solutions. Then a delay occured, and finally once the delay was over, the countdown sat at 0 for a while. Then a page with 2 young kids sheepishly asking for 3 more days showed up briefly, until it was replaced with a teaser splash screen, which is STILL there this afternoon, along with a note from someone I’ve not heard from before named iamatrix. I don’t see him posting in here.[/quote]
Iamatrix is the primary Phenixcoin developer. About the rest, I’ve never announced a product myself without having a working beta at least. Delayed launch is half failed launch. I’ve thought the product was ready by the time of countdown start, just some cosmetics and post production testing to do. It seems the situation is much more complicated.
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[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“22830” timestamp=“1374613918”]
[quote author=svennand link=topic=2941.msg22811#msg22811 date=1374606488]
[quote author=Justabitoftime link=topic=2941.msg22797#msg22797 date=1374605361]
[quote author=MrFeathers link=topic=2941.msg22796#msg22796 date=1374605020]
Now for the important question: Which one of those is justabit? :P
[/quote]If there a character being grilled, that would be me. :)
[/quote]noncense! Great job today, even tough everything didnt go as planed. The plan was really great! looking forward to the new features comming along :D
[/quote]I’m afraid I have to respectfully disagree. The plan was not great, in fact it sucked. A piece of untested software was announced and a deadline given before the software could be tested and finalized. About a million things could have been done differently.
It is a major mistake to announce an untested product to the community at large. What should have happened is there should have been a trial integration of the software with a vendor in order to demonstrate feasibility which was made known privately to core members for testing, and once everything had been proven and demonstrated reliable, the audience should have been expanded to a few more integration and a more public beta. Finally once the system was ready for mass adoption, the countdown to the official release INCLUDING the participating vendors should have been announced, and the release itself should have been rehearsed by all the parties responsible.
Obviously none of this happened. In fact as far as I can tell the exact opposite happened: A countdown was started and press releases were announced long before the software was in a place to be tested by the public at large, let alone have mass adoption. A lot of the time the countdown didn’t work for people, leading them to question our ability to provide working software solutions. Then a delay occured, and finally once the delay was over, the countdown sat at 0 for a while. Then a page with 2 young kids sheepishly asking for 3 more days showed up briefly, until it was replaced with a teaser splash screen, which is STILL there this afternoon, along with a note from someone I’ve not heard from before named iamatrix. I don’t see him posting in here.
It was a bad plan, and on TOP of that it was poorly executed. As a result prices are tanking, and we’re now the laughing stock of the community. You know what would have been a better plan is doing NOTHING AT ALL and focusing on the 51% attacks by adding desperately needed features like PoS or PoB blocks to the blockchain.
I’m embarrassed, I’m angry, I feel lied to, I’m hemorrhaging money, the entire organization has been dyed in shame and unprofessionalism, and I’m NOT ALONE either. We don’t need cheerleaders to go “Ra ra! Great job!” when someone drops the god damned ball, we need owners who take personal responsibility for their commitments, or at the very least, have the courtesy to buy me dinner first… I’m used to getting wined and dined before being lied to and royally.
What happened here is someone bit off more than they can chew and lost focus on what’s important: The currency, and the community that makes it viable.
But the rendering is cool. Perhaps you should add a gigantic pillar of community hellfire around Justabit though…
[/quote]Good deal… I’ll focus on other areas of the coin. I always said “If someone could do it better, please do”. Wesphily will handle the day to day, Kevlar might lend a hand in his thing and I plan to represent you guys to the best of my ability at the Bitcoin Conference.
Lots of great things down the pipe… with Bushstar, UKMark, Wesphily, the entire UNOCS team and community… it’s up to you how far you want to take it. I got the ball rolling, now let’s keep it moving. I’ll be working quite a bit on some of the projects being rolled out from both Feather and UNOCS directly.
Feathercoin… just getting started!
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[quote name=“Justabitoftime” post=“22858” timestamp=“1374623413”]
Good deal… I’ll focus on other areas of the coin. I always said “If someone could do it better, please do”. Wesphily will handle the day to day, Kevlar might lend a hand in his thing and I plan to represent you guys to the best of my ability at the Bitcoin Conference.
Lots of great things down the pipe… with Bushstar, UKMark, Wesphily, the entire UNOCS team and community… it’s up to you how far you want to take it. I got the ball rolling, now let’s keep it moving. I’ll be working quite a bit on some of the projects being rolled out from both Feather and UNOCS directly.
Feathercoin… just getting started!
[/quote]Hey Justabit,
Take a deep breath, calm down.
You’ve been doing great most of the time, I say >99.5%. But not only the praise is needed for a healthy growing community, but also the same importantly for CRITICISM. I truly believe that it won’t go far if no criticism can be heard.
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Lesson learned i would say, next time it will run better, where is the problem?
@Kevlar, your permant capitalistic pov … a ugly attribute, jmo
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I wasn’t going to comment, but I will just say that it is perhaps a little unfair to personally attack members for how we perceive them, and this goes both ways.
It is unfair to paint Kevlar as a capitalist and call this a negative. He, like others, has invested a lot in his mining rigs and is perfectly entitled to be angry when he sees his investment losing value. Very few users/supporters of Feathercoin are purely and solely altruistic, all of us do hope for some financial gain at the end of it.
However, it is also unfair to demonise Justy, as he has also shown a deep personal investment in the adoption of Feathercoin and has worked tirelessly to this end. He was not the sole architect of the launch and was also not the reason it failed in the manner it did. He did take ownership of the communication on what was happening and held up his hands and apologised.
In all, we must use this as a learning experience as stated by others, and not resort to personalising the frustration or anger or disappointment we may feel. By all means, express how you feel, just remember to treat others like we want to be treated.
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[quote name=“spynappels” post=“22885” timestamp=“1374651994”]
I wasn’t going to comment, but I will just say that it is perhaps a little unfair to personally attack members for how we perceive them, and this goes both ways.It is unfair to paint Kevlar as a capitalist and call this a negative. He, like others, has invested a lot in his mining rigs and is perfectly entitled to be angry when he sees his investment losing value. Very few users/supporters of Feathercoin are purely and solely altruistic, all of us do hope for some financial gain at the end of it.
However, it is also unfair to demonise Justy, as he has also shown a deep personal investment in the adoption of Feathercoin and has worked tirelessly to this end. He was not the sole architect of the launch and was also not the reason it failed in the manner it did. He did take ownership of the communication on what was happening and held up his hands and apologised.
In all, we must use this as a learning experience as stated by others, and not resort to personalising the frustration or anger or disappointment we may feel. By all means, express how you feel, just remember to treat others like we want to be treated.
[/quote]nicely said :)
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[quote name=“spynappels” post=“22885” timestamp=“1374651994”]
It is unfair to paint Kevlar as a capitalist and call this a negative. He, like others, has invested a lot in his mining rigs and is perfectly entitled to be angry when he sees his investment losing value. Very few users/supporters of Feathercoin are purely and solely altruistic, all of us do hope for some financial gain at the end of it.
[/quote]We are talking about a currency here guys, and an organization with the goal of supporting said currency. I can’t imagine anything more enterprising than that. These things are made and broke by public perception. It’s job #1 and when you screw it up, people are impacted in their capitol. Like it or not, you’re dealing with capitol here.
[quote]
However, it is also unfair to demonise Justy, as he has also shown a deep personal investment in the adoption of Feathercoin and has worked tirelessly to this end. He was not the sole architect of the launch and was also not the reason it failed in the manner it did. He did take ownership of the communication on what was happening and held up his hands and apologised.In all, we must use this as a learning experience as stated by others, and not resort to personalising the frustration or anger or disappointment we may feel. By all means, express how you feel, just remember to treat others like we want to be treated.
[/quote]No, it isn’t. Don’t get me wrong, I like Justabitoftime a lot. I’ve invested heavily in his grand scheme. He’s positioned himself as the leader of the group, and it’s his responsibility to take the heat when things go horribly wrong under his direction. I, for one, want to know when I fall short of expectations, because I hold myself to a high personal standard, and I expect the same of any other member of the group when it comes to my own contribution. Don’t like how the press releases are being written? I want to hear loud and clear what can be done differently, and I don’t think it helps anyone to hold back and censor ourselves when there’s an opportunity to learn something.
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The attacks were the price of our arrogance in thinking things could chug along without any software improvements. The attackers seemed to know that. These are guys who are attacking the altcoins will eventually be the guys that go after litecoin and bitcoin. no matter what you think about their motives they are gaining experience and tools for attacks on those coins at our expense. If bitcoin and litecoin massively rise in value then that experience and knowledge will be huge. Sitting to long on a clone of litecoin is asking for trouble.
I’m still supporting ftc but I will always question cheerleading. I understand the need to energize people but this is an intellectual pursuit for me. I drank the ibm, microsoft, linux, and then apple koolaid but survived. Now when I see koolaid I just think frothing at the mouth. If you question something and get ignored then you got a problem. Having no discourse or variance in opinion can lead to tunnel vision.
I’m just a mouthpiece here so I can only talk but I was a bit upset when I learned that development had been moved from ftc to unocs. I don’t develop anything but it made me really worry as a miner. I’ve spoken up a few times but never a real answer. Though I’ve felt in the past month just because I’m a miner I don’t matter here. Software and mining pool security are what keep miners mining. You can talk price all you want but no one mines a coin or pool if they get half of what is advertised for them. Without much mining we go the route of cnc and ryc. In the end it sadly just shows are beginner status. But you know how beginners stop being noobs? They get back up and keep doing it while accepting and learning from their mistakes. Time to suck it up.
I liked the idea of unocs but we needed more safety and stability before helping someone start a business. I like the idea justabit, really I do…
Though,at one point I expected someone to say “we’re ditching ftc and we’ve created this new coin for everyone to use from our team of 3 coin developers” when an ‘insider’ coin was announced. Of course that’s still my worry. I have to speak my little fear to hopefully quash it.
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[quote name=“wesphily” post=“23151” timestamp=“1374809664”]
[quote author=jeremiel link=topic=2941.msg23150#msg23150 date=1374809424]
The attacks were the price of our arrogance in thinking things could chug along without any software improvements. The attackers seemed to know that. These are guys who are attacking the altcoins will eventually be the guys that go after litecoin and bitcoin. no matter what you think about their motives they are gaining experience and tools for attacks on those coins at our expense. If bitcoin and litecoin massively rise in value then that experience and knowledge will be huge. Sitting to long on a clone of litecoin is asking for trouble.I’m still supporting ftc but I will always question cheerleading. I understand the need to energize people but this is an intellectual pursuit for me. I drank the ibm, microsoft, linux, and then apple koolaid but survived. Now when I see koolaid I just think frothing at the mouth. If you question something and get ignored then you got a problem. Having no discourse or variance in opinion can lead to tunnel vision.
I’m just a mouthpiece here so I can only talk but I was a bit upset when I learned that development had been moved from ftc to unocs. I don’t develop anything but it made me really worry as a miner. I’ve spoken up a few times but never a real answer. Though I’ve felt in the past month just because I’m a miner I don’t matter here. Software and mining pool security are what keep miners mining. You can talk price all you want but no one mines a coin or pool if they get half of what is advertised for them. Without much mining we go the route of cnc and ryc. In the end it sadly just shows are beginner status. But you know how beginners stop being noobs? They get back up and keep doing it while accepting and learning from their mistakes. Time to suck it up.
I liked the idea of unocs but we needed more safety and stability before helping someone start a business. I like the idea justabit, really I do…
Though, I at one point I expected someone say “we’re ditching ftc and we’ve created this new coin for everyone to use from our team of 3 coin developers” when an ‘insider’ coin was announced. Of course that’s still my worry. I have to speak my little fear to hopefully quash it.
[/quote]You don’t realize how many developers we have access to. Development work is being done for Feathercoin. It takes longer then people would expect to do something that nobody else is doing.
Nobody is ditching anything. Feathercoin is here to stay.
[/quote]That’s good to hear. Always a straight answer from wesphilly.
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Wesphily - what development work is being done on feathercoin?
As investors a list of development plans and status updates would be appreciated.
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[quote name=“Nutnut” post=“23161” timestamp=“1374819491”]
Wesphily - what development work is being done on feathercoin?As investors a list of development plans and status updates would be appreciated.
[/quote]EDIT:
nevermind you talked about the feathercoin itself and not blingbling accessories ;D -
I suppose many people here hold large stakes in FTC as well as PXC and WDC, so they really want answers. What’s being developed, who’s responsible, where are the deadlines, etc. Statements like “big things are coming just wait” are not inspiring. You must have noticed many investors to lose interest in PXC and WDC recently after the failed launch of the UNOCS Bridge. FTC is alright so far thanks to our excellent community, but we’re talking about money, so people want more information.
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[quote name=“wesphily” post=“23211” timestamp=“1374853119”]
Development:
Advanced Checkpointing System
SMS point of sale systemE.T.A:
I said this in another post but I will say it again. I am not giving any e.t.a’s on anything. The last time we did we missed it and, the entire community let us know. All I will say is that we are actively working on those two things.
[/quote]To be fair the UNOCS launch wasn’t what I would call an “eta” more a fanfare of trumpets, flags, to the second timers and screaming from the rooftops. An eta is “Estimated” and non committal.
Have we got a working beta of the APS? If so i’ll gladly hash with it to help out even if it needs to be on testnet. I have offered this to bush previously too.
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[quote name=“Nutnut” post=“23221” timestamp=“1374860869”]
[quote author=wesphily link=topic=2941.msg23211#msg23211 date=1374853119]
Development:
Advanced Checkpointing System
SMS point of sale systemE.T.A:
I said this in another post but I will say it again. I am not giving any e.t.a’s on anything. The last time we did we missed it and, the entire community let us know. All I will say is that we are actively working on those two things.
[/quote]To be fair the UNOCS launch wasn’t what I would call an “eta” more a fanfare of trumpets, flags, to the second timers and screaming from the rooftops. An eta is “Estimated” and non committal.
Have we got a working beta of the APS? If so i’ll gladly hash with it to help out even if it needs to be on testnet. I have offered this to bush previously too.
[/quote]Project management 101. Do we need this for feathercoin. I’m serious. Do we need something like how ubuntu talks about its releases?
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[quote name=“wesphily” post=“23231” timestamp=“1374865815”]
Do we need what? Do we need development? Do we need to update everybody about developments? Do we need to make announcements? What are you asking?
[/quote][url=http://forum.feathercoin.com/index.php?board=53.0]http://forum.feathercoin.com/index.php?board=53.0[/url]
[url=https://github.com/FeatherCoin/FeatherCoin/commits/master]https://github.com/FeatherCoin/FeatherCoin/commits/master[/url]
[url=http://forum.feathercoin.com/index.php?topic=2798.msg21738#msg21738]http://forum.feathercoin.com/index.php?topic=2798.msg21738#msg21738[/url] That disturbed me…Are the only things I can really find about the development of feathercoin.
I hear in some posts we are thinking about checkpoints but nothing else. There is quite a bit of ambiguity right now. Things seem to be going to the unocs site but not the feathercoin site. Are we depreciating the feathercoin site?A official road map with an idea of what we are trying to accomplish would help. Ubuntu sort of does it like this…
[url=https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/Releases[/url] If you break it down further they have an idea of what they are trying to do. [url=https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseSchedule]https://wiki.ubuntu.com/RaringRingtail/ReleaseSchedule[/url] I’m not asking for a set schedule with every detail but at least an idea of where we going and where we are at. Setting a base level of expectations helps everyone or does someone have to be “in” the know?Below gives the people investing their time and money into FTC something to measure. We don’t exactly need this below but something visible to the community would help… [img]http://img.directindustry.com/images_di/photo-g/project-management-software-27207-3377419.jpg[/img]
I keep hearing about unocs this and that… Every time I read something about unocs it comes across as a business. If I’m subsidizing someone’s business venture someone please tell me. Either feathercoin is something that a community controls or a business controls(ripple).
If I’m coming across harsh I’m sorry. I’m just trying to get an idea what’s going on and where we are going. The more i try to piece together what i can find the more questions I have. A little less hype and more laid out plan. Wesphilly your post have always been straight and to the point with little hype. I like that. I guess this conversation is gearing towards what is next and what do we have to do get there?
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wesphily, I like it!
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[quote name=“wesphily” post=“23211” timestamp=“1374853119”]
Development:
Advanced Checkpointing System
[/quote]Has anyone consider how this will kill the coin? You’re adding the ability for some arbitrary authority to completely override the entire consensus of miners. What happens when that is compromised? The entire fortune rests in the hands of one guy who can at any moment decide he wants to double spend a full hour after his transaction is complete, and no amount of hashing power can stop him. And even when it’s used for ‘good, not evil’, it will STILL invalidate transactions when a forked chain is rolled back.
That’s just broken. Horribly.
Every other coin is implementing PoS to address this problem. Why? Because it provides the same level of protection WITHOUT centralization. Why doesn’t Feathercoin innovate and be the first one to produce a PoB scheme that makes the currency deflationary in nature? It’s basic economics and it’s a tragedy of the worst sort that is taking us away from a century of learning about how money works and sending us back to the dark ages of centralized banking.
Worst idea EVAR. Terribad.
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[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“23276” timestamp=“1374911569”]
[quote author=wesphily link=topic=2941.msg23211#msg23211 date=1374853119]
Development:
Advanced Checkpointing System
[/quote]Has anyone consider how this will kill the coin? You’re adding the ability for some arbitrary authority to completely override the entire consensus of miners. What happens when that is compromised? The entire fortune rests in the hands of one guy who can at any moment decide he wants to double spend a full hour after his transaction is complete, and no amount of hashing power can stop him. And even when it’s used for ‘good, not evil’, it will STILL invalidate transactions when a forked chain is rolled back.
That’s just broken. Horribly.
Every other coin is implementing PoS to address this problem. Why? Because it provides the same level of protection WITHOUT centralization. Why doesn’t Feathercoin innovate and be the first one to produce a PoB scheme that makes the currency deflationary in nature? It’s basic economics and it’s a tragedy of the worst sort that is taking us away from a century of learning about how money works and sending us back to the dark ages of centralized banking.
Worst idea EVAR. Terribad.
[/quote]Work is well underway in implementing the Advanced Checkpointing System, when it was first discussed why didn’t you argue against it then and there. We can’t just agree to do something, have it nearly done after investing time and money, scrub it and do something else.
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[quote name=“Pyxis” post=“23280” timestamp=“1374914626”]
[quote author=Kevlar link=topic=2941.msg23276#msg23276 date=1374911569]
[quote author=wesphily link=topic=2941.msg23211#msg23211 date=1374853119]
Development:
Advanced Checkpointing System
[/quote]Has anyone consider how this will kill the coin? You’re adding the ability for some arbitrary authority to completely override the entire consensus of miners. What happens when that is compromised? The entire fortune rests in the hands of one guy who can at any moment decide he wants to double spend a full hour after his transaction is complete, and no amount of hashing power can stop him. And even when it’s used for ‘good, not evil’, it will STILL invalidate transactions when a forked chain is rolled back.
That’s just broken. Horribly.
Every other coin is implementing PoS to address this problem. Why? Because it provides the same level of protection WITHOUT centralization. Why doesn’t Feathercoin innovate and be the first one to produce a PoB scheme that makes the currency deflationary in nature? It’s basic economics and it’s a tragedy of the worst sort that is taking us away from a century of learning about how money works and sending us back to the dark ages of centralized banking.
Worst idea EVAR. Terribad.
[/quote]Work is well underway in implementing the Advanced Checkpointing System, when it was first discussed why didn’t you argue against it then and there. We can’t just agree to do something, have it nearly done after investing time and money, scrub it and do something else.
[/quote]I did. They were ignored, and it was decided that this was the way to go, despite the fact that it WILL kill the coin. And yes, we can actually. That’s exactly the option we have available to us: scrub it and do something else before the entire organization becomes synonymous with centralization, UNOCS Bridge + Feathercoin + ACS == Total centralization with multiple points of catastrophic failure. You think a 51% attack looks bad? Just you wait and see what a good hacker can do with an UNOCS Bridge server under his control!
