Looking for thought on Zerocoin
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Can I be VERY negativeagainst prioritising Zerocoin?
There is too much dev to do as it is, without trying to implement something that’s not yet good enough for Litecoin. Prioritising that development, seems perverse. Haven’t we all learned the lesson of pre announcing? We called it Vapourware. If your gonna do it just get on with it and announce it when its done.
The last thing Feathercoin should do is pander to exchanges (manipulated gambling), I thought we were supposed to be a wide use currency. It is anonymous enough for that. What happened to that if it ain’t broke don’t fix it now? When your choosing to fix something that isn’t broken, whilst network variability and attacks are broken, for us and our partners?, very disappointed.
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[quote name=“wrapper0feather” post=“24372” timestamp=“1375570221”]
Can I be VERY negativeagainst prioritising Zerocoin?There is too much dev to do as it is, without trying to implement something that’s not yet good enough for Litecoin. Prioritising that development, seems perverse. Haven’t we all learned the lesson of pre announcing? We called it Vapourware. If your gonna do it just get on with it and announce it when its done.
The last thing Feathercoin should do is pander to exchanges (manipulated gambling), I thought we were supposed to be a wide use currency. It is anonymous enough for that. What happened to that if it ain’t broke don’t fix it now? When your choosing to fix something that isn’t broken, whilst network variability and attacks are broken, for us and our partners?, very disappointed.
[/quote]Even though I like the idea of zerocoin I agree this should be something down the road. Security first then zerocoin.
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[quote name=“wrapper0feather” post=“24372” timestamp=“1375570221”]
Can I be VERY negativeagainst prioritising Zerocoin?There is too much dev to do as it is…[/quote]
Orly? Where exactly is the prioritized backlog that the developers are working from that’s so long a feature can’t be added to the bottom of it?
Oh, right. There isn’t one. Hell, there isn’t even a list of what changes are being worked on, details on how they’re being implemented, voting by the community on what the priorities should be, or really any transparency whatsoever. What we do have is one developer on a personal quest to centralize the blockchain around whatever block he happens to see first, working without a design document on a protocol which hasn’t been published, reviewed, or ratified by the community.
[quote]
…without trying to implement something that’s not yet good enough for Litecoin.
[/quote]That’s not a valid argument against it. Litecoin has it’s own community and it’s own set of values and priorities which may or may not be in line with ours. Just because someone else has said they’re not interested doesn’t mean we should be not interested. Herd mentality just leads to stagnation. Innovation is the future of crypto-currencies.
[quote]Prioritising that development, seems perverse.[/quote]
No it doesn’t. What does seem perverse is how the leadership is being organized. No transparency, no community voting, a hierarchy of responsibility designed to segregate areas of expertise yet leave no one actually accountable to anyone, missed deadlines, propaganda and hype, a lack of consistent moderation (the post with someone saying “F you” got locked (?!?!), not actually removed), total lack of formal processes, and now a lack of credibility in the public perception as a result, which is going completely unaddressed.
It should be prioritized, by the community, along with ALL the other features that the community wants. Should it be lower on the list than fixing 51% attacks at the protocol level? Sure. Should it not even make the prioritization list? No, it DEFINITELY should.
[quote]Haven’t we all learned the lesson of pre announcing? We called it Vapourware. If your gonna do it just get on with it and announce it when its done.
[/quote]Yes, companies have learned that lesson repeatedly throughout the years. Develop it, test it, have a plan for adoption in place, THEN announce it. That should be obvious to everyone, and I know we’re all flabbergasted that the Feathercoin leadership took us down a different path. UNOCS Bridge is the new Duke Nukem. Now there’s a title I’d wish upon no one.
[quote]
The last thing Feathercoin should do is pander to exchanges (manipulated gambling), I thought we were supposed to be a wide use currency. It is anonymous enough for that. What happened to that if it ain’t broke don’t fix it now? When your choosing to fix something that isn’t broken, whilst network variability and attacks are broken, for us and our partners?, very disappointed.
[/quote]Yes, that too should be obvious at this point. It should be lower in priority than fixing time travel difficulty attacks. But the community should be able to decide that for themselves, and formalize that decision IN SPITE OF the leadership’s opinion on the matter.
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People are free to do and invest as they please. If you want to contribute code, I’m sure Bush would love the assistance.
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Kevlar, Used my post to prove his points. Some of which are valid. I have tried to be as positive as I can with my posts
e.g. “Prioritising Zerocoin to me” means giving a priority to making Feathercoin more anonymous - This Feature is more a Litecoin Feature, where retaining the “criminal” launderable compatibilty is seen as a positive.
We are NOT doing that, so WHY even mention Zerocoin when it is not developed enough for Litecoin (who actually want it to make their coin more launder-able)
We are joining Feathecoin because it has the chance to be the FIRST - NON outright criminal currency, I found the discussion of Zerocoin disturbingly positives, an unneeded complex implementation with unknown consequences, particularly, positive reaction to the idea of pre-announcing that we are a better criminal coin, by people I think should know better.
This is especially, after my non complex, proveably required modifications, with predictable effects were negatively received.
I don’t necessarily disagree with Zerocoin, per say, we’re your friends!!! I’m trying to help you, get the basics right first (PLEASE).
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I guess a question that comes out of this is do we need a website or some place visible to understand feathercoin’s development process? This might encourage other developers to jump on board and get projects moving. A forum post saying “coming along” does not do it, though it is better then nothing.
My development skills are minimal(scripts) but I can offer to setup a site to do this and what do we want?
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[quote name=“Justabitoftime” post=“24400” timestamp=“1375590111”]
People are free to do and invest as they please. If you want to contribute code, I’m sure Bush would love the assistance.
[/quote]No, I assure you, I -really- don’t want to contribute code. I do not like cowboy coding, I do not approve of the direction the development is taking, I do not work well with a lack of transparency, I do not have any sort of specification to code from, I do not accept ad-hoc design as a valid practice that leads to quality software, I absolutely hate the QT client code base because it’s the brain child of one super-genius and reads like it and I am NOT a super genius, I do not like coding in C++ because it’s a very verbose language that requires me to think about the hardware and I’ve done it for 10 years years professionally and I never want to look at another pointer to a pointer to a const structure which dereferences a const pointer to a const void pointer and have my brain implode, and frankly I just have better things to do with my time that make me much happier like writing trading bots that reward me for my efforts and having sex with a beautiful woman, who also rewards me for my efforts.
Instead I want to contribute good ideas, solid solutions to real problems, technical oversight, transparency, good design, and a bias against herd mentality. I see these things in Bitcoin. There’s a wonderful process called the Bitcoin Improvement Proposal process that Gavin and the rest of them follow that provides all these things. I see these things in XChange, and BitcoinJ, which is why I DO write code for them. I’m a committer on JCS, the Apache project for the Java Caching System, because they do a great job of organizing their development efforts and promoting good code to the community at an acceptable rate and in a transparent way. I’m even happy to contribute my business writing/editing skills, because that’s been handled in a transparent and efficient manner.
And I’ve tried really hard to do that too. I’ve championed so many feature improvements that I’m starting to lose track of them. I’ve relentlessly tried to point out holes in the design and thinking of the design of the currency so that bad ideas don’t make their way into the code base out of ignorance, or worse, malevolence. I’ve been encouraging to anyone with a good idea, and critical of those who do not live up to the standards becoming of their positions. I’ve tried to be the voice of discontent when all I could hear around me was blind adoration, and the voice of enthusiasm when someone has done something to earn my adulation.
For my efforts, I’ve been demonized by members of the community and accused of being unreliable, a profit hunter, a dirty capitalist, a politician, a liar, a conspirator, an attacker of the currency itself (you know, 51% style?) by the lead developer no less (that was a moment for me when I realized what type of people I was really dealing with here), and an ass, despite the fact that no one has actually been able to point out what it is I’m saying that isn’t demonstrably true.
So, thank you, but no. I don’t want to write code under these conditions. I’ll stick with writing code for the communities who value my contribution. But don’t feel bad Justabit, you’ve been solid. You can’t help the hand you were dealt with some of these clowns in it that ruin it for the rest of the otherwise perfectly good people here.
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[quote name=“wrapper0feather” post=“24417” timestamp=“1375598587”]
e.g. “Prioritising Zerocoin to me” means giving a priority to making Feathercoin more anonymous - This Feature is more a Litecoin Feature, where retaining the “criminal” launderable compatibilty is seen as a positive.We are NOT doing that, so WHY even mention Zerocoin when it is not developed enough for Litecoin (who actually want it to make their coin more launder-able)
We are joining Feathecoin because it has the chance to be the FIRST - NON outright criminal currency, I found the discussion of Zerocoin disturbingly positives, an unneeded complex implementation with unknown consequences, particularly, positive reaction to the idea of pre-announcing that we are a better criminal coin, by people I think should know better.
[/quote]That’s a really poor characterization of both Litecoin, and Zerocoin. Criminals are not the only people who need to have their monetary transactions be anonymous, and being anonymous doesn’t make you a criminal, let alone a better one. Poor choice of words, calling it “criminal coin”.
[quote]
This is especially, after my non complex, proveably required modifications, with predictable effects were negatively received.
[/quote]Yours too, huh?
[quote]
I don’t necessarily disagree with Zerocoin, per say, we’re your friends!!! I’m trying to help you, get the basics right first (PLEASE).
[/quote]We totally agree there.
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[quote name=“jeremiel” post=“24418” timestamp=“1375599275”]
I guess a question that comes out of this is do we need a website or some place visible to understand feathercoin’s development process? This might encourage other developers to jump on board and get projects moving. A forum post saying “coming along” does not do it, though it is better then nothing.My development skills are minimal(scripts) but I can offer to setup a site to do this and what do we want?
[/quote]Oh, you mean like some sort of knowledge base, where these things are made transparent and can be improved upon by the community… AKA a Wiki? Yeah. That would be a good start. But only if the developers actually use it as it’s intended, doing things like posting their designs for review and refinement and acceptance by the community before starting implementation. *cough*ACS*cough*
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[quote name=“Justabitoftime” post=“24400” timestamp=“1375590111”]
People are free to do and invest as they please. If you want to contribute code, I’m sure Bush would love the assistance.
[/quote]I believe Bushstars job at this stage is to facilitate and supervise community involvement. He is Linus.
Bushstar is the luckiest man in crypto currency. He has started the 3rd biggest coin - and we have the experience and open source code of Bitcoin and Litecoin before us. There is too much for him to do by himself, it is absolutely essential for community action for Feathercoin to succeed. The quicker we develop that the better.
I have done a bit of hacking, but I would prefer to go through a proper developer, to implement changes. I had the same arguments in software meetings in real life, I am reasonably impressed by the forums combined “intelligence”
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I and others have already suggested multiple improvements that could easily be made to the Feathercoin forum to promote community involvement.
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We are already “taking off”, Feathercoin doesn’t have to worry about pleasing the exchanges, that just smacks of p*mp d*mp. All we have to do is secure the network, and it will pay off for everyone!!!
I promise YOU - we have it made - DON’T PISS IN THE CHIPS…
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[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“24421” timestamp=“1375599812”]
[quote author=jeremiel link=topic=3136.msg24418#msg24418 date=1375599275]
I guess a question that comes out of this is do we need a website or some place visible to understand feathercoin’s development process? This might encourage other developers to jump on board and get projects moving. A forum post saying “coming along” does not do it, though it is better then nothing.My development skills are minimal(scripts) but I can offer to setup a site to do this and what do we want?
[/quote]Oh, you mean like some sort of knowledge base, where these things are made transparent and can be improved upon by the community… AKA a Wiki? Yeah. That would be a good start. But only if the developers actually use it as it’s intended, doing things like posting their designs for review and refinement and acceptance by the community before starting implementation. *cough*ACS*cough*
[/quote]So I just set one up and nothing happens o’well? Ok. I have no problem getting something started though not really my skill set.
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[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“24420” timestamp=“1375599577”]
That’s a really poor characterization of both Litecoin, and Zerocoin. Criminals are not the only people who need to have their monetary transactions be anonymous, and being anonymous doesn’t make you a criminal, let alone a better one. Poor choice of words, calling it “criminal coin”.
[/quote]
+1! Anonymity != criminality. It is obvious that people here want Zerocoin implemented because they value privacy, not because they are scheming to launch criminal enterprises.
When I hand over a bunch of fiat bills to pay for something, there is no public ledger that gets passed along with those bills for all to see where the money came from and where it went, for all eternity. It would be nice for a cryptocurrency to finally have that same advantage.
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We all want to try to justify privacy in many ways but there is only one that matters.
No one has any right to know what I buy and when I buy it. That’s what privacy all about. My business, no one elses. If I want to buy a bunch of milk and cookies with my money so be it. It’s also should not be considered “suspicious” to deny someone every little bit of info about myself. If you think it’s suspicious that I don’t want people in my business then you have something to hide. Does this mean some people can abuse this to do questionable things? Yes, but security doesn’t justify the abuse of my privacy. All that shows is that they suck at their job and want a shortcut. It shows there is a underlying problem that’s being ignored. Is there a happy medium? Yes but we’re no where near that.
[sub]sorry for the soapbox…[/sub]
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[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“24421” timestamp=“1375599812”]
[quote author=jeremiel link=topic=3136.msg24418#msg24418 date=1375599275]
I guess a question that comes out of this is do we need a website or some place visible to understand feathercoin’s development process? This might encourage other developers to jump on board and get projects moving. A forum post saying “coming along” does not do it, though it is better then nothing.My development skills are minimal(scripts) but I can offer to setup a site to do this and what do we want?
[/quote]Oh, you mean like some sort of knowledge base, where these things are made transparent and can be improved upon by the community… AKA a Wiki? Yeah. That would be a good start. But only if the developers actually use it as it’s intended, doing things like posting their designs for review and refinement and acceptance by the community before starting implementation. *cough*ACS*cough*
[/quote]I’m confused. If you don’t like the way things are run, you are free to create your own coin. Heck, you’re free to grab a project and contribute to Feathercoin’s acceptance. Great, you pointed out things that you feel should be done… what resources are YOU offering?
Everyone has wonderful ideas, individual action is what matters in the end.
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[quote name=“Justabitoftime” post=“24478” timestamp=“1375666398”]
[quote author=Kevlar link=topic=3136.msg24421#msg24421 date=1375599812]
[quote author=jeremiel link=topic=3136.msg24418#msg24418 date=1375599275]
I guess a question that comes out of this is do we need a website or some place visible to understand feathercoin’s development process? This might encourage other developers to jump on board and get projects moving. A forum post saying “coming along” does not do it, though it is better then nothing.My development skills are minimal(scripts) but I can offer to setup a site to do this and what do we want?
[/quote]Oh, you mean like some sort of knowledge base, where these things are made transparent and can be improved upon by the community… AKA a Wiki? Yeah. That would be a good start. But only if the developers actually use it as it’s intended, doing things like posting their designs for review and refinement and acceptance by the community before starting implementation. *cough*ACS*cough*
[/quote]I’m confused. If you don’t like the way things are run, you are free to create your own coin. Heck, you’re free to grab a project and contribute to Feathercoin’s acceptance. Great, you pointed out things that you feel should be done… what resources are YOU offering?
Everyone has wonderful ideas, individual action is what matters in the end.
[/quote]He might have been a bit angry on his comment but he was answering my question about setting up a resource for the community. So HE wasn’t offering a resource, I was. He was answering what would be a good choice to help quell fears because I asked.
Everyone needs to stop being paranoid and accusing people of being attackers against FTC. We got attacked because we WERE focused on the wrong thing. Everything was bright and shiny. Now it isn’t. Need to stop whining about the dirty shoes and move forward.
[quote author=jeremiel link=topic=3136.msg24428#msg24428 date=1375601664]
So I just set one up and nothing happens o’well? Ok. I have no problem getting something started though not really my skill set.
[/quote] -
tl;dr
I’ve been in contact with the team over at Zerocoin, we’re setting up a meeting sometime next week to learn more about the possible opportunities.
If you have some pent up energy, feel free to grab a few Feathercoin supporters and do something grassroots.
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The problem is that some of this stuff requires the explicit cooperation of the dev team. That’s what we’re looking for; so far anyone who has talked about making things more transparent in this way has been labeled a liar and thief and told to trust the people in charge.
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[quote name=“wesphily” post=“24582” timestamp=“1375734687”]
It is hard for me to believe that somebody with such knowledge/experience would only use it to talk negatively. (not talking about you) If I knew how to do what some people have suggested then I would have tested it on a clone coin and then shown proof to Bushstar for implimentation. I would not spend all my time typing doom and gloom.
[/quote]If you’re talking about me, then you’re clearly underestimating just how many hours there are in the day.
I’ve studied zerocoin. Even with libzerocoin, it’s still beyond my abilities to hobby it out in a ad-hoc fashion. It’s going to require some real organization from the developers to come up with the protocol to integrate it, so any time spent on Zerocoin is best spent there, because that work can be applied to any coin, which is one of the many things I’m doing with my free time. Unfortunately Feathercoin severely lacks that organizational structure, so I’m doing it with another group who take their development process much more seriously. We’re presently working on how to update the Strong RSA accumulator. That seems to be the tricky part in the entire scheme, since it has to be updated whenever a new Zerocoin is produced, but could be orphaned if a block comes before we’ve minted a block with it, so you have to union out the transactions that are already included when you update the accumulator. I’m also still puzzled how to make this happen with every block. So far the best solution I’ve come up with is to modify the client to ONLY store Zerocoin serials, so they can redeem them in one transaction, and then spend them in the next block after that transaction appears on the blockchain, but it may end up being better to just Zerocoin them initially, and wait X blocks to claim them, where x > 1 but perhaps less than 12, meaning they can’t be spent for those X blocks.
I can also assure you that the implementation will require a hard fork of the existing block chain.
But of course you’re all too busy ignoring my concerns and making silly accusations about me to really care what I’m doing with my free time.
It is hard for me to believe that a community with a vested interest in keeping the value of their coin would only use their time to bash the ones who talk negatively about it instead of listening to their well reasoned suggestions and [u][i][b]DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THE PROBLEMS BEING POINTED OUT[/b][/i][/u] in said negative talk. The Emperor is wearing no clothes, and all you can do is insult the people who are pointing it out?
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[quote name=“wesphily” post=“24590” timestamp=“1375736809”]
So…what you all are saying is that you are willing to assist with programming if I can get you connected with Bushstar?
[/quote]No. I thought I made myself clear in this post: http://forum.feathercoin.com/index.php?topic=3136.msg24419#msg24419
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[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“24588” timestamp=“1375736202”]
[quote author=wesphily link=topic=3136.msg24582#msg24582 date=1375734687]
It is hard for me to believe that somebody with such knowledge/experience would only use it to talk negatively. (not talking about you) If I knew how to do what some people have suggested then I would have tested it on a clone coin and then shown proof to Bushstar for implimentation. I would not spend all my time typing doom and gloom.
[/quote]If you’re talking about me, then you’re clearly underestimating just how many hours there are in the day.
I’ve studied zerocoin. Even with libzerocoin, it’s still beyond my abilities to hobby it out in a ad-hoc fashion. It’s going to require some real organization from the developers to come up with the protocol to integrate it, so any time spent on Zerocoin is best spent there, because that work can be applied to any coin, which is one of the many things I’m doing with my free time. Unfortunately Feathercoin severely lacks that organizational structure, so I’m doing it with another group who take their development process much more seriously. We’re presently working on how to update the Strong RSA accumulator. That seems to be the tricky part in the entire scheme, since it has to be updated whenever a new Zerocoin is produced, but could be orphaned if a block comes before we’ve minted a block with it, so you have to union out the transactions that are already included when you update the accumulator. I’m also still puzzled how to make this happen with every block. So far the best solution I’ve come up with is to modify the client to ONLY store Zerocoin serials, so they can redeem them in one transaction, and then spend them in the next block after that transaction appears on the blockchain, but it may end up being better to just Zerocoin them initially, and wait X blocks to claim them, where x > 1 but perhaps less than 12, meaning they can’t be spent for those X blocks.
I can also assure you that the implementation will require a hard fork of the existing block chain.
But of course you’re all too busy ignoring my concerns and making silly accusations about me to really care what I’m doing with my free time.
It is hard for me to believe that a community with a vested interest in keeping the value of their coin would only use their time to bash the ones who talk negatively about it instead of listening to their well reasoned suggestions and [u][i][b]DOING SOMETHING ABOUT THE PROBLEMS BEING POINTED OUT[/b][/i][/u] in said negative talk. The Emperor is wearing no clothes, and all you can do is insult the people who are pointing it out?
[/quote]It’s funny… I remember a time when I was sending individual emails to people over at Bitcointalk to encourage them to take a look at the forums. It’s easy to talk about how disorganized Feathercoin is… I would have ** LOVED ** to seen how you would have done it differently. Heck, create a new coin, show me how easy it is to make it all work. There are so many coins right now trying to figure that out with little success. Not an opinion, that’s a simple measurable fact.
Look around, one of the most active communities out there… obviously this disorganized group did something right. I bet it looks so easy from a distance, I can’t wait to watch how you rally hundreds of very different opinions any more effectively. Really, I’m looking forward to seeing what I could have done differently with *drum roll* volunteers.
As you can see from my posts in the main discussion, I will continue to help push the coin forward. As for all this, I believe while some good points are made, it’s wrapped around typical crypto drama. I don’t care about how much people make on their arbitrage bots, I don’t care they are ‘rewarded’ by women… .just plain nonsense (this was mentioned in a previous reply in this thread). I’ll spend my time with the movers and shakers trying to add value to your investments. Good luck to all.
