Scrypt Jane Research - Post Ideas Here
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I think this might have drawbacks.
I am not so sure that GPU computing, as it stands, will be viable and available long term for end users. Limiting ourselves to devices created by AMD/Nvidia, we really are limiting ourselves to the whims of 2 companies. This isn’t much different than avalon/bfl/etc etc other than, FOR NOW, that hardware is available, is that always going to be true or in 3-4 years will we need specialized hardware anyways?
In addition, mining started on CPU’s, then to specialized hardware (GPU) and now more specialized hardware. Why is that such a problem?
Just my 2 cents.
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[quote name=“jeremiel” post=“14845” timestamp=“1371223908”]
I know most of this discussion is above my pay grade but I’m for an alternate scrypt. You won’t lose my measly 3MH hashes if you switch(as long as there is a miner). I feel like the time is now to more differentiate us from others. We already have a base set of users though do know that such a change will most likely drop the nhr(network hash rate) to around 200 MH or whatever the equivalent is for jane or alternatives.Heck such a move has me more confident in the coin. I might actually build another rig. It seems to me every sort of legitimate coin that comes out has a similar copycat to steal it’s thunder. With so many just trying simple tweaks to litecoin to see what works, we have a flood of coins.
I’m just a lowly miner 49er…
[/quote]As we hash out (he he he) technical details, I want to make sure this idea isn’t lost in the shuffle. As long as we’re under Litecoin’s shadow, we’ll continue to be seen as it’s knockoff. It amazes me how much credit they get for implementing scrypt, but alas, that’s a different discussion.
As I read more up on scrypt jane, it appears to have fairly modular design. I’d like to hear more about that from the community.
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I’m also interested in the idea of a different algorithm. My concern I guess is how much of our hashing power is community based and how much is transient across coins. From my own perspective when I was switching coins I was mining a month or so ago I found myself avoiding going back to SHA256 ones just because it was easier to stick with my scrypt set up. I wonder how much we would lose and not recover.
But saying that maybe it’s not a problem if the approach is very much that we are building scrypt-jane from the ground up and are unconcerned that initial hash will take a heavy hit when changed. A good opportunity could be missed by not taking the risk with a new algo.
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[quote name=“randomdef” post=“14852” timestamp=“1371224411”]
I think this might have drawbacks.I am not so sure that GPU computing, as it stands, will be viable and available long term for end users. Limiting ourselves to devices created by AMD/Nvidia, we really are limiting ourselves to the whims of 2 companies. This isn’t much different than avalon/bfl/etc etc other than, FOR NOW, that hardware is available, is that always going to be true or in 3-4 years will we need specialized hardware anyways?
In addition, mining started on CPU’s, then to specialized hardware (GPU) and now more specialized hardware. Why is that such a problem?
Just my 2 cents.
[/quote]Change doesn’t come for free. Abrupt change reconfigures and adds stresses to the community. It’s not pure math. It’s economic physics and chemistry.
There isn’t a sufficient diversity of economic philosophy and strategies to sustain it. ASICs will lead to the Bitcoin Alzheimers Constipation Kerfluffle, at which point it will crash to around $20. The more coins one group of people make reduces (via difficulty) the amount of coins others can make. This splits the community into people who crave more coins and want to buy more and people who give up and go elsewhere demanding to be treated as kings in the alt currencies. The ones who have then cut the flow driving up the price. This works until Wordpress says this is too weird, Amazon Gift Card prices go random, Charities have no idea where the price will be, and the banks start lobbying Congress to have them manage the Bitcoin madness, because clearly the geeks can’t.
That’s the problem.
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What happens if ATI/AMD alters their APP in the future and no longer is efficient at scrypt mining?
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[quote name=“zerodrama” post=“14867” timestamp=“1371225797”]
[quote author=randomdef link=topic=1839.msg14852#msg14852 date=1371224411]
I think this might have drawbacks.I am not so sure that GPU computing, as it stands, will be viable and available long term for end users. Limiting ourselves to devices created by AMD/Nvidia, we really are limiting ourselves to the whims of 2 companies. This isn’t much different than avalon/bfl/etc etc other than, FOR NOW, that hardware is available, is that always going to be true or in 3-4 years will we need specialized hardware anyways?
In addition, mining started on CPU’s, then to specialized hardware (GPU) and now more specialized hardware. Why is that such a problem?
Just my 2 cents.
[/quote]Change doesn’t come for free. Abrupt change reconfigures and adds stresses to the community. It’s not pure math. It’s economic physics and chemistry.
There isn’t a sufficient diversity of economic philosophy and strategies to sustain it. ASICs will lead to the Bitcoin Alzheimers Constipation Kerfluffle, at which point it will crash to around $20. The more coins one group of people make reduces (via difficulty) the amount of coins others can make. This splits the community into people who crave more coins and want to buy more and people who give up and go elsewhere demanding to be treated as kings in the alt currencies. The ones who have then cut the flow driving up the price. This works until Wordpress says this is too weird, Amazon Gift Card prices go random, Charities have no idea where the price will be, and the banks start lobbying Congress to have them manage the Bitcoin madness, because clearly the geeks can’t.
That’s the problem.
[/quote]Issue is, in my mind, ASIC’s hasen’t been abrupt, just very kind to early adopters. If anything, the introduction of this alt-coin and many others, has been abrupt.
I didn’t understand anything else you wrote, you need to be a little more dumb and layman’s terms for me.
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Coblee believes that there is only room for one coin under each hashing algo. Any other coin will see its difficulty rollercoaster which seems true for us right now as we swing between 41% swings up and down. For now we need to share Scrypt with Litecoin but when GPU miners need somewhere else to go we might want to be that place. I’ve always thought that Litecoin had some miners with deep pockets prep the market when the miners started moving over.
Perhaps we would be better of becoming the dominant Scrypt alt :)
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https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=234287.msg0;topicseen#new
Check it out!!
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[quote name=“Bushstar” post=“14886” timestamp=“1371228649”]
Coblee believes that there is only room for one coin under each hashing algo. Any other coin will see its difficulty rollercoaster which seems true for us right now as we swing between 41% swings up and down. For now we need to share Scrypt with Litecoin but when GPU miners need somewhere else to go we might want to be that place. I’ve always thought that Litecoin had some miners with deep pockets prep the market when the miners started moving over.Perhaps we would be better of becoming the dominant Scrypt alt :)
[/quote]Maybe when this project started, being an add-on for Litecoin was fine. Obviously, Feathercoin quickly became stone soup… we attracted some amazing talent and here we are 1500+ members deep.
“Coblee believes that there is only room for one coin under each hashing algo.”
This says it all. It’s bad enough to watch my investment fall under 2.2 without any massive market pushes, it’s worse to not even be accepted for the strengths Feathercoin brings to the crypto community.
- How many new miners have we helped (me being one of them) ?
- How many people that would have been shunned away from other forums found an interest in crypto because of Feathercoin?
- How many people have worked on projects because they enjoyed the resources and helpful attitude of this community?
- How many giveaways did we have to get people involved?
etc… etc… I get it, we’re not ‘nerd cool’. Let’s stop pretending that being that other coin is good enough… that’s my 00000010 cents.
[b]I say we compete. [/b]Keep our doors wide open for future cooperation, but compete in a new category. Ubuntu is hated by the hardcore Linux guys because it introduces the platform to the novice user, it’s loses it’s ‘nerd cool’. Feathercoin also has a very similar community, one that is open to new ideas and works hard at making things ‘friendly’ and ‘easy’ for the non geeks. I know some developers have trouble understanding how that adds value, let’s show them.
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I’ll play devil’s advocate.
Let’s go over the scenario of literally changing the algorithm. What’s the process everyone would have to follow(miners and users) once it’s changed? New client? Restructure of pools? New miner deployed? A start date for change over?
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[quote name=“Vigil” post=“14873” timestamp=“1371227235”]
What happens if ATI/AMD alters their APP in the future and no longer is efficient at scrypt mining?
[/quote]APP is first of all a front end. Just use the older version on the new hardware or, you know, pay someone to hack it.
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GPU mining will come to demise just like CPU mining has come already. You can’t beat inevitable. We need a solution of painless transition to ASIC mining. A controlled by community solution to avoid all mess we see happening now with Bitcoin. I’m ready to help any honest developer who wants to design and market a scrypt ASIC without having the community left behind.
[quote]Coblee believes that there is only room for one coin under each hashing algo. Any other coin will see its difficulty rollercoaster which seems true for us right now as we swing between 41% swings up and down.[/quote]
That’s what he says. Litecoin has suffered lately due to Feathercoin and a few other altcoins. Some of them are to disappear soon, but Feathercoin is here to stay and they don’t really want the competition. We’re less than 2 months old and look at our achievements!
We can surely implement a different kind of scrypt, but I’m inclined to think it isn’t going to bring us any real advantage at this moment. Our losses may be higher than gains.
Bitcoin won’t change its hash function to scrypt. Not now, not ever. Even if their developers are crazy enough to approve this decision, people who have invested money into ASICs are to stay on the old block chain. ASICs are contributing already to over 60% of their hash rate including 24% by ASICminer alone.
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[quote name=“justabitoftime” post=“14905” timestamp=“1371230437”]
[quote author=Bushstar link=topic=1839.msg14886#msg14886 date=1371228649]
Coblee believes that there is only room for one coin under each hashing algo. Any other coin will see its difficulty rollercoaster which seems true for us right now as we swing between 41% swings up and down. For now we need to share Scrypt with Litecoin but when GPU miners need somewhere else to go we might want to be that place. I’ve always thought that Litecoin had some miners with deep pockets prep the market when the miners started moving over.Perhaps we would be better of becoming the dominant Scrypt alt :)
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[/quote]Raise the pirate flag. I’m game.
[quote]
Maybe when this project started, being an add-on for Litecoin was fine. Obviously, Feathercoin quickly became stone soup… we attracted some amazing talent and here we are 1500+ members deep.“Coblee believes that there is only room for one coin under each hashing algo.”
[/quote]Rename Litecoin HighlanderCoin. I’ll sing Who Wants to Live Forever? (I can’t sing.)
[quote]
This says it all. It’s bad enough to watch my investment fall under 2.2 without any massive market pushes, it’s worse to not even be accepted for the strengths Feathercoin brings to the crypto community.- How many new miners have we helped (me being one of them) ?
- How many people that would have been shunned away from other forums found an interest in crypto because of Feathercoin?
- How many people have worked on projects because they enjoyed the resources and helpful attitude of this community?
- How many giveaways did we have to get people involved?
[/quote]
How many creative people feel they can propose something and get great contributions without the user/dev split personality that communities tend to have?
Just, I remember first time you showed up, I went, “Holy Shit, I’m in.”
[quote]
etc… etc… I get it, we’re not ‘nerd cool’. Let’s stop pretending that being that other coin is good enough… that’s my 00000010 cents.
[/quote]Nerd cool. We can make that happen, no sweat. But it’s meaningless. Where do we WANT TO BE?
[quote]
[b]I say we compete. [/b]Keep our doors wide open for future cooperation, but compete in a new category. Ubuntu is hated by the hardcore Linux guys because it introduces the platform to the novice user, it’s loses it’s ‘nerd cool’. Feathercoin also has a very similar community, one that is open to new ideas and works hard at making things ‘friendly’ and ‘easy’ for the non geeks. I know some developers have trouble understanding how that adds value, let’s show them.
[/quote]Nitpick, Ubuntu made some anti Free Software choices and botched some pieces (Unity). I would compare us to the launchpad ppa community. If I hadn’t been using Debian forever, I would have jumped on that.
But yeah. Actually, I would compare us even to BeOS and Amiga communities.
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[quote name=“ghostlander” post=“14920” timestamp=“1371232995”]
GPU mining will come to demise just like CPU mining has come already. You can’t beat inevitable. We need a solution of painless transition to ASIC mining. A controlled by community solution to avoid all mess we see happening now with Bitcoin. I’m ready to help any honest developer who wants to design and market a scrypt ASIC without having the community left behind.[quote]Coblee believes that there is only room for one coin under each hashing algo. Any other coin will see its difficulty rollercoaster which seems true for us right now as we swing between 41% swings up and down.[/quote]
That’s what he says. Litecoin has suffered lately due to Feathercoin and a few other altcoins. Some of them are to disappear soon, but Feathercoin is here to stay and they don’t really want the competition. We’re less than 2 months old and look at our achievements!
We can surely implement a different kind of scrypt, but I’m inclined to think it isn’t going to bring us any real advantage at this moment. Our losses may be higher than gains.
Bitcoin won’t change its hash function to scrypt. Not now, not ever. Even if their developers are crazy enough to approve this decision, people who have invested money into ASICs are to stay on the old block chain. ASICs are contributing already to over 60% of their hash rate including 24% by ASICminer alone.
[/quote]We might not see eye to eye on everything, but we’re close. I can tell you from a marketing perspective (I know the tech souls in us don’t want to hear the M word), it’s a major deal. Even if we saw immediate losses, I still think long-term it’s huge. We need to start a new category, we need to own the space.
I agree with your statement concerning Bitcoin. I do see your vision for ASIC mining, I just might disagree on the time table.
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[quote name=“ghostlander” post=“14920” timestamp=“1371232995”]
GPU mining will come to demise just like CPU mining has come already. You can’t beat inevitable. We need a solution of painless transition to ASIC mining. A controlled by community solution to avoid all mess we see happening now with Bitcoin. I’m ready to help any honest developer who wants to design and market a scrypt ASIC without having the community left behind.
[/quote]ASIC makes crypto available to all. The price points are great and the distribution to all is possible. It’s the zombies who don’t want to produce anything only jump currencies like rabbits on crack that I worry about. ASICs in the hands of Gold 2.0 lunatics will cause bitcoin to suicide down to $20. Guaranteed.
[quote]
[quote]Coblee believes that there is only room for one coin under each hashing algo. Any other coin will see its difficulty rollercoaster which seems true for us right now as we swing between 41% swings up and down.[/quote]That’s what he says. Litecoin has suffered lately due to Feathercoin and a few other altcoins. Some of them are to disappear soon, but Feathercoin is here to stay and they don’t really want the competition. We’re less than 2 months old and look at our achievements!
[/quote]He wants the “Me too” market. Well that’s what he got. GPU tweakers.
[quote]
We can surely implement a different kind of scrypt, but I’m inclined to think it isn’t going to bring us any real advantage at this moment. Our losses may be higher than gains.Bitcoin won’t change its hash function to scrypt. Not now, not ever. Even if their developers are crazy enough to approve this decision, people who have invested money into ASICs are to stay on the old block chain. ASICs are contributing already to over 60% of their hash rate including 24% by ASICminer alone.
[/quote]I really believe multiple layers is going to be the way to go. Without multiple layers we will have constant market overheat and crash patterns because people are thinking short term. If we want to support commerce, we have to begin there. There is no gradual step from ADHD to smooth cruising.
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I’m going to stare at a folder of folders and put folders in the folders. Time to move.
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[quote name=“zerodrama” post=“14930” timestamp=“1371233844”]
I’m going to stare at a folder of folders and put folders in the folders. Time to move.
[/quote]What does this mean, and besides that you like to see yourself post, what is the point of you posting this?
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[quote name=“randomdef” post=“14945” timestamp=“1371236031”]
[quote author=zerodrama link=topic=1839.msg14930#msg14930 date=1371233844]
I’m going to stare at a folder of folders and put folders in the folders. Time to move.
[/quote]What does this mean, and besides that you like to see yourself post, what is the point of you posting this?
[/quote]It means I’m going to rearrange the folders and code in LeatherCoin so people can quickly find the code they seek to do tests etc.
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Well since we’re debating scrypt/scrypt-jane/sha256, let’s talk openly here.
Why would people bringing huge investment to the coin be bad? FPGA/ASIC miners are not cheap to design or manufacturer, and there’s still the power investment.
If people could suddenly invest in Feathercoin by buying specialized hardware, wouldn’t this ultimately be a good thing?
Bitcoin maintains it’s price because people have a vested interest in seeing it do so… so it does.
It seems to me we’re having a problem of people not being invested enough in it’s value to continue to mine it, wouldn’t making a change that would allow people to take their already considerable investment in Bitcoin mining, and allowing them to get on board be a GOOD thing?
What’s the argument for keeping it specialized, and not commercially available again? I seem to have missed it.
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[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“15018” timestamp=“1371242752”]
What’s the argument for keeping it specialized, and not commercially available again? I seem to have missed it.
[/quote]SHA256 is like sitting on an infinite pile of wet noodles to achieve security. And every advance means you have attackers with 100s of times the speed of everyone else.
SHA256 generates constant paranoia and prevents evolution to commerce.Do we actually have 19 MILLION diff worth of transactions per second? This is like the story of the guy who tried to outrun a locomotive. OVERKILL.
Scrypt is 1000x as strong so you only need a little bit to achieve the same degree of security. Scrypt also gets technological advances with a more reasonable 5 to 15x boost. You don’t have to keep reinvesting in hardware to do continue doing business.
Scrypt-jane if done right blows away attackers. And these zombies are coming.
I’m sorry, but we cannot base decisions on pure numbers. These numbers don’t just go up and down. They accelerate and stagnate. They destroy investment that has yet to be paid off.
I constantly see people trying to make numerical arguments free of philosophical content and I’m sorry but that’s the road to failure.
Again, I would be for ASIC IF and ONLY IF the ASIC crowd were not a bunch of Gold 2.0 lunatics.
