Scrypt (Litecoin) ASIC Prototype
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[quote name=“ghostlander” post=“14758” timestamp=“1371216526”]
That’s more than enough to design and debug a [b]prototype[/b]. High expences start at the manufacturing stage when you order a full mask.
[/quote]Their posting starts with: “In a nutshell: we designed and built an [b]ASIC prototype[/b] …”.
It’s not like you take a breadboard and put some resistors, capacitors and ICs on it.
An ASIC prototype is always design [b]and[/b] production of a real piece of silicon. And that requires masks and lots of production stept. And is bloody expensive.
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[quote name=“ghostlander” post=“14768” timestamp=“1371217641”]
[quote author=Bushstar link=topic=1829.msg14757#msg14757 date=1371216471]
For our grass roots community we would want to stay away from dedicated mining hardware and stay in the remit of GPU miners. This would probably take the form of a move to Scrpyt-Jane. At that point Bitcoin and Litecoin could rule SHA-256 and Scrypt respectively while we could rule Scrypt-Jane :)
[/quote]That’s a bad idea. GPU performance degrades very much with high N. Considering a 32->1024 change, regular CPU performance decreases by about 10 times while GPU performance drops by about 20 times. Further N increase results in hash rate performance getting dependent on memory bandwidth nearly completely. A very inefficient approach.
[/quote]Certainly we want an efficient hashing solution. We want something that will resist Scrypt ASICs and still be GPU friendly. I believe we can set the maximum of N. I will soon setup a testnet with four nodes and 5,000KH power to test out some different solutions. I’m currently involved in other high priority tasks so if anyone want to do some research on Scrypt-Jane and report what is possible in a new thread for the community that would be appreciated :)
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Fixed that for you:
[quote name=“ghostlander” post=“14768” timestamp=“1371217641”]
[quote author=Bushstar link=topic=1829.msg14757#msg14757 date=1371216471]
For our grass roots community we would want to stay away from dedicated mining hardware and stay in the remit of GPU miners. This would probably take the form of a move to Scrpyt-Jane. At that point Bitcoin and Litecoin could rule SHA-256 and Scrypt respectively while we could rule Scrypt-Jane :)
[/quote][s]That’s a bad idea.[/s] [color=red]That’s a good idea.[/color] GPU performance degrades very much with high N. Considering a 32->1024 change, regular CPU performance decreases by about 10 times while GPU performance drops by about 20 times. Further N increase results in hash rate performance getting dependent on memory bandwidth nearly completely. A very inefficient approach.
[/quote]A block found with difficulty 10000 is as good as a block found with difficulty 1.
Why would we wanna have an arms race like that what’s currently going on in the Bitcoin world?
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[quote name=“Radacoin” post=“14778” timestamp=“1371218536”]
[quote author=ghostlander link=topic=1829.msg14758#msg14758 date=1371216526]
That’s more than enough to design and debug a [b]prototype[/b]. High expences start at the manufacturing stage when you order a full mask.
[/quote]Their posting starts with: “In a nutshell: we designed and built an [b]ASIC prototype[/b] …”.
It’s not like you take a breadboard and put some resistors, capacitors and ICs on it.
An ASIC prototype is always design [b]and[/b] production of a real piece of silicon. And that requires masks and lots of production stept. And is bloody expensive.
[/quote]They had no money to order masks. What they had probably is some HDL design and basic hardware implementation using FPGAs and other industry standard logic. However, if it works as expected and they have a proof, the next stage is to prepare a business plan for the 1st round of venture capital gathering.
[quote]A block found with difficulty 10000 is as good as a block found with difficulty 1.[/quote]
I’m not sure if you understand the matters right, but N is not difficulty.
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[quote name=“Radacoin” post=“14783” timestamp=“1371218676”]
Fixed that for you:[quote author=ghostlander link=topic=1829.msg14768#msg14768 date=1371217641]
[quote author=Bushstar link=topic=1829.msg14757#msg14757 date=1371216471]
For our grass roots community we would want to stay away from dedicated mining hardware and stay in the remit of GPU miners. This would probably take the form of a move to Scrpyt-Jane. At that point Bitcoin and Litecoin could rule SHA-256 and Scrypt respectively while we could rule Scrypt-Jane :)
[/quote][s]That’s a bad idea.[/s] [color=red]That’s a good idea.[/color] GPU performance degrades very much with high N. Considering a 32->1024 change, regular CPU performance decreases by about 10 times while GPU performance drops by about 20 times. Further N increase results in hash rate performance getting dependent on memory bandwidth nearly completely. A very inefficient approach.
[/quote]A block found with difficulty 10000 is as good as a block found with difficulty 1.
Why would we wanna have an arms race like that what’s currently going on in the Bitcoin world?
[/quote]Research thread here:
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[quote name=“ghostlander” post=“14788” timestamp=“1371219195”]
[quote]A block found with difficulty 10000 is as good as a block found with difficulty 1.[/quote]
I’m not sure if you understand the matters right, but N is not difficulty.
[/quote]That’s right. Hence why I said difficulty and not N ::)
Why would you wanna have an arms race like in the Bitcoin world? Why would you wanna drive difficulty sky high?
Is - in your eyes - a block solved with difficulty 10000 better than a block solves with difficulty 1?
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[quote name=“Radacoin” post=“14794” timestamp=“1371219792”]
Why would you wanna have an arms race like in the Bitcoin world? Why would you wanna drive difficulty sky high?[/quote]There won’t be any race if business is done in civilised way. If you want to stay away and hide in a cave, that’s your choice. The ASICs are coming. One day you may find out that scrypt ASICs are already here, owned by a limited group of people, and you have little to do against with your expensive power hungry GPUs.
[quote]Is - in your eyes - a block solved with difficulty 10000 better than a block solves with difficulty 1?[/quote]
Difficulty is not something to fear of. It’s just an instrument to control block generation rate.
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[quote name=“ghostlander” post=“14820” timestamp=“1371221943”]
The ASICs are coming. One day you may find out that scrypt ASICs are already here, owned by a limited group of people, and you have little to do against with your expensive power hungry GPUs.
[/quote]You don’t get it, do you?
It will always end up being power hungry.
[b]People will always mine as long as the generated mining income will be more than the power costs.[/b]
Whether the network will be at 15 GHash/s with CPUs, 150 GHash/s with GPUs or 150,000 GHash/s with ASICS - or at 150,000,000 GHash/s with ASICS v2.0.
Why would you wanna have scrypt ASICS? Let me ask you again: Is a block solved with difficulty 10000 better than a block solves with difficulty 1?
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[b]Radacoin[/b], you’re missing my point again and again. It doesn’t matter at all whether you, me or Satan Claus love scrypt ASICs or hate them. They’re profitable and they’re coming. Those who deliver them first get outstanding ROI. You can participate or ignore. You won’t stop them by putting a particular developer down. There are always others to come.
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[quote name=“Radacoin” post=“14838” timestamp=“1371223530”]
[quote author=ghostlander link=topic=1829.msg14820#msg14820 date=1371221943]
The ASICs are coming. One day you may find out that scrypt ASICs are already here, owned by a limited group of people, and you have little to do against with your expensive power hungry GPUs.
[/quote]You don’t get it, do you?
It will always end up being power hungry.
[b]People will always mine as long as the generated mining income will be more than the power costs.[/b]
Whether the network will be at 15 GHash/s with CPUs, 150 GHash/s with GPUs or 150,000 GHash/s with ASICS - or at 150,000,000 GHash/s with ASICS v2.0.
Why would you wanna have scrypt ASICS? Let me ask you again: Is a block solved with difficulty 10000 better than a block solves with difficulty 1?
[/quote]I made a similar point in another thread about price v powercosts v !ASICS but I think I was missing the point also, they will come eventually, whether you or I like it is irrelevant and by not embracing it could be quite possibly naive :-\
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ASICs are a benefit not a negative. Mining at this point already involves purchasing expensive video cards - 1000s of dollars worth. ASICs reduce the costs and improve efficiencies in power consumption. Saying that ASICs are a hindrance to decentralization of mining is like saying that the PC was a hindrance to personal computing. Some of you need to listen to Clay Christensen.
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[quote name=“Bushstar” post=“14757” timestamp=“1371216471”]
I have no doubt that Scrypt ASICs will one day hit us. However the post linked from BitcoinTalk is amusing and is a scam.For our grass roots community we would want to stay away from dedicated mining hardware and stay in the remit of GPU miners. This would probably take the form of a move to Scrpyt-Jane. At that point Bitcoin and Litecoin could rule SHA-256 and Scrypt respectively while we could rule Scrypt-Jane :)
[/quote]Agreed +1
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WHEN asics hit GPU mining will be pointless. At present even my kids can mine a few coins here and there but once ASICs hits it will only be the hardcore miners willing to toss a couple of grand in that will be mining.
ASICs are as the name suggests Application Specific so unlike a £1500 gaming rig that can be used to skype aunty mary or send her an email, asics are for one thing only. Trying to get the Mrs to agree to that will be harder so my guess is that 90% of the miners here will stop mining scrypt and find another coin or toss in the towel all together.
Whilst i know they’re coming, i don’t like them. They take the fun and accessibility out of mining…
Let’s also not forget that when they are launched they are as rare as the proverbial rocking horse sh… The rich get richer…
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[quote name=“Nutnut” post=“20596” timestamp=“1373304310”]
WHEN asics hit GPU mining will be pointless. At present even my kids can mine a few coins here and there but once ASICs hits it will only be the hardcore miners willing to toss a couple of grand in that will be mining.ASICs are as the name suggests Application Specific so unlike a £1500 gaming rig that can be used to skype aunty mary or send her an email, asics are for one thing only. Trying to get the Mrs to agree to that will be harder so my guess is that 90% of the miners here will stop mining scrypt and find another coin or toss in the towel all together.
Whilst i know they’re coming, i don’t like them. They take the fun and accessibility out of mining…
Let’s also not forget that when they are launched they are as rare as the proverbial rocking horse sh… The rich get richer…
[/quote]At the end of the day they will make mining more accessible. This is common sense. There is no such thing as technology which makes things less accessible. Even current ASICs mine cheaper than GPUs - it is less expensive to mine now, not more. -
[quote name=“Vigil” post=“20601” timestamp=“1373307439”]
[quote author=Nutnut link=topic=1829.msg20596#msg20596 date=1373304310]
WHEN asics hit GPU mining will be pointless. At present even my kids can mine a few coins here and there but once ASICs hits it will only be the hardcore miners willing to toss a couple of grand in that will be mining.ASICs are as the name suggests Application Specific so unlike a £1500 gaming rig that can be used to skype aunty mary or send her an email, asics are for one thing only. Trying to get the Mrs to agree to that will be harder so my guess is that 90% of the miners here will stop mining scrypt and find another coin or toss in the towel all together.
Whilst i know they’re coming, i don’t like them. They take the fun and accessibility out of mining…
Let’s also not forget that when they are launched they are as rare as the proverbial rocking horse sh… The rich get richer…
[/quote]At the end of the day they will make mining more accessible. This is common sense. There is no such thing as technology which makes things less accessible. Even current ASICs mine cheaper than GPUs - it is less expensive to mine now, not more.
[/quote]I’m sorry, I disagree. Almost every 10 year old kid has a computer that they can mine on. It’s therefor accessible to them. Don’t see many kids with Avalons though. They seem to be rather inaccessible. Same goes for us grown ups.
Also for someone looking to start mining, they can start and play around with almost any PC and get at least some return. Not many people will want to have a play with a 2grand+ ASIC. A bit inaccessible…
Whilst they will still be able to mine with GPU’s it would’t be worth it and would scare them off. Tried mining BTC recently? Bit too inaccessible for Joe Blow for my liking.
I feel that your basing your comments on someone looking to go at it big time and run dedicated rigs rather than the casual miner/gamer that already has most of the kit they need to mine.
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[quote name=“Vigil” post=“20601” timestamp=“1373307439”]
[quote author=Nutnut link=topic=1829.msg20596#msg20596 date=1373304310]
WHEN asics hit GPU mining will be pointless. At present even my kids can mine a few coins here and there but once ASICs hits it will only be the hardcore miners willing to toss a couple of grand in that will be mining.ASICs are as the name suggests Application Specific so unlike a £1500 gaming rig that can be used to skype aunty mary or send her an email, asics are for one thing only. Trying to get the Mrs to agree to that will be harder so my guess is that 90% of the miners here will stop mining scrypt and find another coin or toss in the towel all together.
Whilst i know they’re coming, i don’t like them. They take the fun and accessibility out of mining…
Let’s also not forget that when they are launched they are as rare as the proverbial rocking horse sh… The rich get richer…
[/quote]At the end of the day they will make mining more accessible. This is common sense. There is no such thing as technology which makes things less accessible. Even current ASICs mine cheaper than GPUs - it is less expensive to mine now, not more.
[/quote]There is no chance unless a company can actually out produce demand (highly unlikely) that they will make mining more accessible. All ASICs require long waiting lists before you can get your ASIC (1 month to over a year) and I can get a new GPU in 0-3 days. So how in your crazy logic do ASICs make mining more accessible?
While in concept ASICs seem great, there simply is not enough supply to make them good for the mining community. If for some reason the government intervenes or the markets crash ASICs will become worthless and my GPUs will still be worth money. You have to be dedicated to mining for them to be worth your money. I simply prefer being able to play games on my rigs and swap them to mining at my leisure. If ASICs were cheap and readily available I would invest in one, however, they are not and will never be unless a big company gets into the game and can meet demand at reasonable prices.
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[quote name=“Vigil” post=“20601” timestamp=“1373307439”]
At the end of the day they will make mining more accessible. This is common sense. There is no such thing as technology which makes things less accessible. Even current ASICs mine cheaper than GPUs - it is less expensive to mine now, not more.
[/quote]It’s been over a year with the bitcoin ASICs and the only ASIC readily [b]affordable AND available[/b] to someone right now (like buy now and get in a few days) is a USB block erupter at 333 M/hash. They still have not ironed out the whole process to make them readily available to any consumer, even though tens of millions of dollars have been poured into their businesses.
GPUs are readily available and affordable and that evens the playing field for all miners.
