Feathercoin Kickstarter - Ideas are just multipliers of execution
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[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“28636” timestamp=“1379697029”]
There should be no penalty for not getting funding, and no reward for not helping someone get funding. If the campaign is a success, the organizers can take a percent for themselves before the person gets their funds, but if the campaign doesn’t reach it’s funding goal, then all the money goes back to it’s owners, and NO rewards for failure should be given out.
[/quote]This is very thorough thanks, I am on the move but a brief skim read looks good. Let’s hear more from the others now!
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Can we replace stupid perks (my activist side just plain reels back from these abominations) and instead make clear what portion of the project would be possible at each stage?
Maybe the donors who get the project from one stage to the next could be personally invited to a short chat about what that stage of the project is about.
Too many crowd funding systems treat people like they are five years old.
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[quote name=“chrisj” post=“28638” timestamp=“1379697549”]
So Mirrax your thoughts on the decisions?
[/quote]I think this whole idea is premature now and its waste of your time.
C’mon, we are not able to raise even 1000FTC for contest during 2 months! -
[quote name=“zerodrama” post=“28640” timestamp=“1379698120”]
Can we replace stupid perks (my activist side just plain reels back from these abominations) and instead make clear what portion of the project would be possible at each stage?Maybe the donors who get the project from one stage to the next could be personally invited to a short chat about what that stage of the project is about.
Too many crowd funding systems treat people like they are five years old.
[/quote]Is this what you mean?
[img]http://static.fjcdn.com/gifs/Dog+Knocks+Over+Kid.+Kid+just+won+t+stay+down_196bad_4356974.gif[/img]
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[quote name=“mirrax” post=“28641” timestamp=“1379698220”]
[quote author=chrisj link=topic=3687.msg28638#msg28638 date=1379697549]
So Mirrax your thoughts on the decisions?
[/quote]I think this whole idea is premature now and its waste of your time.
C’mon, we are not able to raise even 1000FTC for contest during 2 months!
[/quote]I have some tricks up my sleeve. If you work with me here and leave this part up to me let me know how you think it should be run; I do value your opinion.
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[quote name=“chrisj” post=“28633” timestamp=“1379694530”]
Right let’s make this happen.There are decisions to be made, should we thrash them out in here or set up a new thread?
They are:
[b]Ideas Board[/b] This is the first round where people pitch their idea, if they are selected they get to progress on to the round 2
[list type=decimal]
[*]How long should people have to get feedback on their idea eg 3 days? 7 Days?[/list]
[color=red][b]14days[/b][/color]
[list][*]Should they have to raise a deposit?[/list]
[color=red][b]they must[/b][/color]
[list][*]If so how much?[/list]
[color=red][b]10% or more of target amount[/b][/color]
[list][*]Should there be a format to the pitch, ie Brief Summary, Description of Problem, Solution?[/list]
[color=red][b]no[/b][/color]
[list][*]How should people qualify for the Projects Board? Should there be a panel of judges?[/list]
[color=red][b]i have no idea for this point[/b][/color]
[/list][b]Projects Board[/b] This is round 2 where people are held accountable
[list type=decimal]
[*]Should there be mods like [url=http://forum.feathercoin.com/index.php?topic=3687.msg28328#msg28328]@T4rQu1N[/url] who watch each project and keep people held to deadlines?[/list]
[color=red][b]yes[/b][/color]
[list][*]On what condition should people lose their deposits? E.g. If they make the deadline but fail to deliver on what they proposed? OR If they fail to reach deadline[/list]
[color=red][b]both conditions[/b][/color]
[list][*]Could we do a 3 strikes and you’re out rule to take the edge off?[/list]
[color=red][b]no[/b][/color]
[list][*]If the deposit is lost how should the FTC be distributed? Given out randomly to community members with a Reddit style Tipbot? Given to someone else in Projects Forum as investment? [/list]
[color=red][b]again no idea from me[/b][/color]
[/list]
[/quote] -
Thanks so much Mirrax
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This is Fantastic I am definitely going to help with this Kickstarter!
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I’d be interested to see this or another system for crowd sourced investment used to encourage crypto service start-ups. While this could just pertain to services involving cryptocoins, I think it would be more important to encourage all kinds of service work. The development of the service sector is integral to the enrichment and expansion of cryptocurrency.
We shouldn’t limit the coins to be used only to buy goods, gamble, or trade on the exchanges. I should be able to have my lawn mowed, my car washed, and my son tutored for FeatherCoin/Bitcoin. While getting these services up and running doesn’t require a Kickstarter in the fiat world, having something analogous in the crypto world might help accelerate the economic development of the servicee sector (which is lagging behind the fiat one very badly).
Just a thought, what do you guys think?
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[quote name=“Chaoskampf” post=“29047” timestamp=“1380038596”]
I’d be interested to see this or another system for crowd sourced investment used to encourage crypto service start-ups. While this could just pertain to services involving cryptocoins, I think it would be more important to encourage all kinds of service work. The development of the service sector is integral to the enrichment and expansion of cryptocurrency.We shouldn’t limit the coins to be used only to buy goods, gamble, or trade on the exchanges. I should be able to have my lawn mowed, my car washed, and my son tutored for FeatherCoin/Bitcoin. While getting these services up and running doesn’t require a Kickstarter in the fiat world, having something analogous in the crypto world might help accelerate the economic development of the servicee sector (which is lagging behind the fiat one very badly).
Just a thought, what do you guys think?
[/quote]I think you’re 100% on the mark. +1
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I feel that we have a lot to offer through our Marketing Alliance we are putting together over at ADSactly sure right now it needs a Ton of Work and I understand that we are working very hard to get all the Tools and Services ADSactly will be offering to be Available for purchase by using Feathercoins. What we need to make this a Reality is a Large Amount of Feathercoins that we can have on reserve for fluctuations in the market.
We have many Ideas that will help put Feathercoin in-front of thousands of individuals and businesses looking for an Alternative to the Fiat Money System we are currently being Controlled by.
I have spoken to Chris a few Days ago regarding working together with the Feathercoin Community to get the Capital needed to make pretty much anything possible with the Feathercoin Community we all have great ideas and many of the people in this great community are very skilled in Training, Article Writing, SEO, Advertising, Art, Graphics, Programming… The List goes on and on. ADSactly is planning to create Global Marketing Alliance that is driven by people that care about helping others and making a Better World.
I hope we can Grow this Community into Millions of People who are Educated in Alternative Money forget these Fiat Currencies people the the US Dollar is worth less than 2 Cents because we have been sleeping for far to long and have allowed a small group of people to hijack our Banks and sadly even our Country.
We all have to Stand up and work together to create systems that provide people with everything they need to make a difference in anybodies life by providing true value and products that people need at prices everybody can afford.
I look forward to hearing your comments and suggestions.
Have a Great Day!
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Firstly, apologies for not being around lately, I am on trials with work, in a tempested building in a room with no windows…its fun, honest!
Anyway, before any project gets off the ground, and as an investor, I would like to see some sort of solid business plan. Nobody in their right mind is going to front up some cash (or coins) without reasonable confidence that something is going to come out the other end. To this end, I suggest each potential project be required to fill out a business model canvas; this youtube video explains it pretty well; [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoAOzMTLP5s#ws]Business Model Canvas Explained[/url]
I have a template somewhere on my gmail I can share with my associates ;), or we could build this into the submission method?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting that every box needs filling, or that there aren’t any decent projects which won’t ever have revenue, but using a structured approach such as this is extremely helpful for the enthusiastic entrepreneur to totally scope out their idea, and prove to the community that they have actually thought seriously about their idea.
Another concern I have, is the generation of IP. I completely agree that open source is better; after all, crowd sourcing solutions is a brilliant way to expand and improve an idea, but I would be slightly worried that if I had a really good idea and it was posted in an open forum, someone else could easily take it and build it before it’d even got off the ground. I’m not sure how to address this though… I was thinking if this ‘Koinstarter’ was a separate website, we could at least enforce some kind of NDA for all signups, and somehow link it to a real profile rather than an online avatar? After all, people are investing real money/money with real value into it… I don’t know.
Also, if this is a proper website, once we’ve started it up, there are going to be many many copies for all the other cryptocurrencies. I suggest we launch with FTC, but with the immediate option of switching on BTC and LTC funding channels if it is popular. Just my two cents!
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[quote name=“T4rQu1N” post=“29267” timestamp=“1380225547”]
Firstly, apologies for not being around lately, I am on trials with work, in a tempested building in a room with no windows…its fun, honest!Anyway, before any project gets off the ground, and as an investor, I would like to see some sort of solid business plan. Nobody in their right mind is going to front up some cash (or coins) without reasonable confidence that something is going to come out the other end. To this end, I suggest each potential project be required to fill out a business model canvas; this youtube video explains it pretty well; [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoAOzMTLP5s#ws]Business Model Canvas Explained[/url]
I have a template somewhere on my gmail I can share with my associates ;), or we could build this into the submission method?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting that every box needs filling, or that there aren’t any decent projects which won’t ever have revenue, but using a structured approach such as this is extremely helpful for the enthusiastic entrepreneur to totally scope out their idea, and prove to the community that they have actually thought seriously about their idea.
[/quote]I would strongly suggest against this model.
Kickstarters are NOT angel investments. They’re funding for a specific product, solution, or concept. You are not an investor in a business, you’re an early adopter and supporter of an individual or group with an idea. You’re purchasing a product, not funding a bankroll. You’re not taking equity, so things like customer segments, value propositions, channels, customer relationships, revenue streams, etc. don’t even matter at all, since the answer to all of those is likely to be, “Don’t know, don’t care. Just buy my product if you think it scratches your itch.” and most supporters are more like, “Shut up and take my money for your awesome product/idea” rather than, “Well how do I hedge my risk?”
[quote]
Another concern I have, is the generation of IP. I completely agree that open source is better; after all, crowd sourcing solutions is a brilliant way to expand and improve an idea, but I would be slightly worried that if I had a really good idea and it was posted in an open forum, someone else could easily take it and build it before it’d even got off the ground. I’m not sure how to address this though… I was thinking if this ‘Koinstarter’ was a separate website, we could at least enforce some kind of NDA for all signups, and somehow link it to a real profile rather than an online avatar? After all, people are investing real money/money with real value into it… I don’t know.Also, if this is a proper website, once we’ve started it up, there are going to be many many copies for all the other cryptocurrencies. I suggest we launch with FTC, but with the immediate option of switching on BTC and LTC funding channels if it is popular. Just my two cents!
[/quote]Open source is better than what? Proprietary? Creative Commons? Licensing? Shared source? Public domain? It depends on what your goal is here, and each model has it’s proper place and time.
If an idea is so easily implemented, then it’s not worth funding, because someone can just go implement it and no need to raise funds. Such problems tend to solve themselves. There’s no way to enforce an NDA, so there’s no point in having one.
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Thanks so much for all this input! I don’t have time to read all this right now, I need some sleep but I need to reboot this thread because I want more voices in this dialogue. Does anyone object if I create a new thread where we just discuss this process?
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[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“29276” timestamp=“1380232100”]
I would strongly suggest against this model.
Kickstarters are NOT angel investments. They’re funding for a specific product, solution, or concept. You are not an investor in a business, you’re an early adopter and supporter of an individual or group with an idea. You’re purchasing a product, not funding a bankroll. You’re not taking equity, so things like customer segments, value propositions, channels, customer relationships, revenue streams, etc. don’t even matter at all, since the answer to all of those is likely to be, “Don’t know, don’t care. Just buy my product if you think it scratches your itch.” and most supporters are more like, “Shut up and take my money for your awesome product/idea” rather than, “Well how do I hedge my risk?”
[/quote]
True enough I suppose, if you’re talking products prototypes, and things that have hard evidence of development behind them. Would you back a Kickstarter that was simply a good solution/concept or product idea if the person pitching it hadn’t properly thought it out though? I doubt it very much.
I respectfully disagree with your assessment that this is not an investment, because I think a lot of the ideas that will be coming through will be crypto services rather than complete products they want to sell. As a result, I would expect my coins to represent a small equity in the business model, else where is my incentive to put up some cash? Early access to a service perhaps?
Perhaps my suggestion is a little in depth for the casual nature of this type of funding, but I for one will be assessing any potential options on the level of detail they provide. I can’t afford to be throwing coins away to someone who raises enough funding, but has no idea of the scale of work required, or hasn’t thought everything through properly. Either way, if you don’t do some kind of assessment of risk, whether official or not, for the feasibility of an idea, then we leave ourselves open to being scammed (cynical much?)
[Quote]
Open source is better than what? Proprietary? Creative Commons? Licensing? Shared source? Public domain? It depends on what your goal is here, and each model has it’s proper place and time.
[/quote]
I guess I meant it metaphorically; as in, two heads are better than one, open source meaning that you can get a lot of useful feedback from your target customers before you make decisions, and thus ensure lean design/minimum viable product, and maximise your resource efficiency.[Quote]
If an idea is so easily implemented, then it’s not worth funding, because someone can just go implement it and no need to raise funds. Such problems tend to solve themselves. There’s no way to enforce an NDA, so there’s no point in having one.
[/quote]Again I disagree. I have an amazing idea which would generate a lot of interest, and could potentially have a great revenue stream for its owners, but I lack the skills to develop it. Someone with those skills however, could probably finish the whole project in a month or sooner. If you are starting a new service, then you can readily agree the terms with which people invest, and become backers.
Having looked back I feel I may have misinterpreted what this kickstarter thing is supposed to be. Are we purely talking product development for cryptocoins? Or are we including services within this category? If services, then I would very much suggest a venture capitalist style approach, simply because it lends itself to these business models. If products, then a Kickstarter copy with cryptocoin payment options would work very well I suppose.
What do you think Kevlar? Or am I missing a trick again? :-\
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[quote name=“T4rQu1N” post=“29325” timestamp=“1380288905”]
…What do you think Kevlar? Or am I missing a trick again? :-\
[/quote]I think you’re making some very intelligent and relevant points.
[quote]
True enough I suppose, if you’re talking products prototypes, and things that have hard evidence of development behind them. Would you back a Kickstarter that was simply a good solution/concept or product idea if the person pitching it hadn’t properly thought it out though? I doubt it very much.
[/quote]No, I definitely would not. I completely agree that experience, background, and detailed development plans should absolutely be part of the pitch. Not just what, but who, how, and when is very important. This things absolutely form a critical part of the proposal, all I’m saying is that has nothing to do with revenue models or potential market segments.
[quote]
I respectfully disagree with your assessment that this is not an investment, because I think a lot of the ideas that will be coming through will be crypto services rather than complete products they want to sell. As a result, I would expect my coins to represent a small equity in the business model, else where is my incentive to put up some cash? Early access to a service perhaps?
[/quote]The latter, always. If it’s a service, early/discounted access. If it’s a product, the completed product. Trying to turn it into an equity purchase INSTEAD of a sale opens up a ginormous regulatory clusterfuck that is best avoided at all costs. You risk running afowl of public investment solicitation laws, and most people aren’t interested in running a business anyway, and then there’s this whole thing of needing to incorporate and do a formal stock issue and shareholder meetings and omfg just make it stop PLEASE! If you want an investment, talk to an accredited investor, because 99% of supporters won’t be one. This isn’t a sales of shares, it’s a sale of product/service.
[quote]
Perhaps my suggestion is a little in depth for the casual nature of this type of funding, but I for one will be assessing any potential options on the level of detail they provide.
[/quote]As well you should!
[quote]I can’t afford to be throwing coins away to someone who raises enough funding, but has no idea of the scale of work required, or hasn’t thought everything through properly. Either way, if you don’t do some kind of assessment of risk, whether official or not, for the feasibility of an idea, then we leave ourselves open to being scammed (cynical much?)
[/quote]Due diligence is, for better or for worse, an exercise left up to the supporter. There’s been a few great scams/disappointments in Kickstarter’s history. For a great example, Google “Code Hero” and “Alex Peake”. Here’s a well meaning guy who I happen to be good friends with AFK who bit off way more than he could chew, raised over 100k USD and blew it all long before the product was ready to ship. The supporters are pissed, and talk of a class-action lawsuit has been thrown about, but these people really have little recourse: They’re not shareholders, and Alex is legitimately broke. It’s a sad story, but for every failure, there’s 10,000 incredible success stories, and people DEFINITELY are willing to invest more in people who have a history of completion or a background that’s relevant to the project.
[quote]
[quote]
If an idea is so easily implemented, then it’s not worth funding, because someone can just go implement it and no need to raise funds. Such problems tend to solve themselves. There’s no way to enforce an NDA, so there’s no point in having one.
[/quote]Again I disagree. I have an amazing idea which would generate a lot of interest, and could potentially have a great revenue stream for its owners, but I lack the skills to develop it. Someone with those skills however, could probably finish the whole project in a month or sooner. If you are starting a new service, then you can readily agree the terms with which people invest, and become backers.
[/quote]I’m not clear on this one. If someone ELSE with those skills could finish the whole project in a month or sooner, why would I give YOU the money? I’d rather give it to the guy with the skills to pull it off, who’s probably asking less as a result. Supporters don’t care if it has a great revenue stream for it’s owner, because they’re not it’s owner, they’re just users of the product/service. I don’t buy an iPhone because it makes Apple a lot of money, I buy it because it suits my needs and style.
[quote]Having looked back I feel I may have misinterpreted what this kickstarter thing is supposed to be. Are we purely talking product development for cryptocoins? Or are we including services within this category? If services, then I would very much suggest a venture capitalist style approach, simply because it lends itself to these business models. If products, then a Kickstarter copy with cryptocoin payment options would work very well I suppose.[/quote]
Now I think I understand how you’re using the term ‘service’ here. Generally I think of a hosted website as providing a service, but in this case it’s really a product. By that definition, it’s always product development. If you wanted to start an angle investment fund using crypto coins, that would be a completely different animal, and a venture capitalist style approach would be appropriate. That would require a WHOLE lot more work and commitment, and I don’t think this particular model is very well suited for such an endeavor. Crowd funding works because it skips the investment phase, and puts the buyers directly in touch with the seller, and that’s why it’s able to be light and lean as a process. Going back to the traditional investment style of development is an interesting proposition, but would probably require more commitment than most people here would be willing to put forth, and might be better done with a few people who trust each other rather than trying to solicit Joe Public’s support.
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hey Yo, kevlar! shut up!
Heh I j/k. I value your opinions highly. Without arguments you bring up some good points. I suggested the angel type approach and I’ll take the heat for it, but it did get the brain gears grinding. The last thing we need to do it come up with ideas until they’re all thought of by other people and implemented.
Craft a system that works. I think alt-coins have a barrier to break. Bitcoin can survive without any ground breaking ideas through the nature of it’s inception. Alt-coins require a slightly different approach so in my opinion a typical crowd funding strategy won’t work. We need something fresh, and I for one would love to add a stock-ownership approach to Feathercoin and for that I can see a venture capital/crowd funding hybrid. The “coin” is a hybrid so why not add symmetry to the system.
cryptostocks.com is a good example of this. Why not create a Feathercoinstocks.com, and invest in the technology through there after the business models have gone through an analysis and venture capital has been attained. There can even be a venture capital stock that pays through investments in all the companies it invests in like a ETF of sorts.
Okay I’m rambling.
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Sorry everyone, I am back on this thread now and just need to catch up.
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[quote name=“Kevlar” post=“28636” timestamp=“1379697029”]
[quote author=chrisj link=topic=3687.msg28633#msg28633 date=1379694530]
[list][*]How long should people have to get feedback on their idea eg 3 days? 7 Days?[/list]
[/quote]7 days is fair. It’s long enough to weed out the undedicated and let people have a chance to respond, but short enough to keep things moving.
[/quote]
Agreed[quote author=Kevlar link=topic=3687.msg28636#msg28636 date=1379697029]
1% of the total funds raised. If they want 10,000 Feathercoins, they have to put in 100. If they want 100,000, that’s 1,000.
[/quote]
I think this is a bit too high and remember there are people from developing countries on here too who might not be able to afford it. Perhaps we could give people the ability to fund raise for the deposit itself. So maybe the deposit is something like 1% of the overall target, they must put in at least 250FTC of that but the rest can be raised subject to special requirements?I will also speak a bit later on how I would prefer it if the funding is staggered over time.
[quote author=Kevlar link=topic=3687.msg28636#msg28636 date=1379697029]
Yes. Elevator pitches are important, but so are the detailed solution. Videos should be encouraged too. Above all, TRANSPARENCY needs to be encouraged. Investors deserve to know WHO they are investing in, and people should not hide behind forum handles. This is real money we’re talking about here.
[/quote]
I am concerned that would put people off from investing. Maybe each investor could say up front if Identity is a requirement? Also one thing we could do give users Front End Anonymity such that Feathercoin (or some other entity) knows who they are but we don’t reveal that to the public. This could be a feature of the escrow facility that Bush and Maria are building in the Marketplace.I like the idea of video, I think everyone should be allowed to communicate their idea in any way they see fit. I am aware that with Kickstarter and others if you don’t look good on camera or can’t afford to have a video made you are discriminated against so I would like it if we could maintain as level playing field as possible.
[quote author=Kevlar link=topic=3687.msg28636#msg28636 date=1379697029]
Let their be a round of voting each week, as well as a “no confidence” option. You must beat every other project in votes, AND beat the no confidence vote as well. The one who does each week progresses, or if no confidence wins, no one progresses.
[/quote]
Interesting, so you’re saying that only [i]one[/i] project can graduate from idea to project each week? That’s interesting, that would certainly help to find the ones most able to execute.I’d like to hear you talk about the people like UKMark who just like to go off and do stuff regardless, they still need our support and I would like to include them as part of this initiative but sometimes these types of entrepreneur don’t even know they need funding, they go off, do an excellent job but then get stuck because they should have got more support at the beginning. I would like us to help these people too.
[quote author=Kevlar link=topic=3687.msg28636#msg28636 date=1379697029]
No. Zero tolerance for deadbeats. If you take the money, and you don’t deliver, you can’t ask for more, and you can’t do something else. If you deliver late, but you deliver, then you’re ok to go again, but the public will know last time you delivered late.
[/quote]The compassionate side of me is screaming out that this could be a missed opportunity to really help the people who often times find it hard to ask for help and over promise and under deliver.
However what I do like in what you are saying in the last few points you have made is that we should be very strict on delivery and deadlines. I definitely think people who miss those should pay a penalty but I also think we should always be here for them so that they are always able to turn the bad in to good.[quote author=Kevlar link=topic=3687.msg28636#msg28636 date=1379697029]
There should be no penalty for not getting funding, and no reward for not helping someone get funding. If the campaign is a success, the organizers can take a percent for themselves before the person gets their funds, but if the campaign doesn’t reach it’s funding goal, then all the money goes back to it’s owners, and NO rewards for failure should be given out.
[/quote]
I agree with all of that. But what I meant in my original post was: what do we do with the [i]deposit[/i] if the person fails to reach a target deadline. I understand that if they don’t get all their funding then of course it should go back to the investors but what if they get the funding, spend it (with deposit in tact) and then fail to deliver. Where should the deposit go? I don’t think Feathercoin should keep it.Going to carry on reading the rest of the thread…
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[quote name=“zerodrama” post=“28640” timestamp=“1379698120”]
Can we replace stupid perks (my activist side just plain reels back from these abominations) and instead make clear what portion of the project would be possible at each stage?Maybe the donors who get the project from one stage to the next could be personally invited to a short chat about what that stage of the project is about.
Too many crowd funding systems treat people like they are five years old.
[/quote]Yeah I agree, they are very patronising and fail to realise that the most important thing about any kind of startup is not the coming up with the idea or the creation of an impressive looking pitch it’s the delivery. Setting deadlines, managing agreements and expectations and holding people to account is what is really important.
I want the Feathercoin Kickstarter to be defined by its ability to help people follow through on their ideas, not create some kind of distorted market place where the best looking projects win over the more deserving.
So something like a chat with the founders would be nice. Also I am thinking that Investors should be able to receive some kind of recognition and credibility in the community for having seen the potential in someone else and being willing to help them. I think right now we have too narrow a definition of success when it comes to business.
Does that sound about right?
